Only In Florida (legislature tries to pass another Intelligent design bill)

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by tater

Wow, truly idiotic.

Just to show that both sides are anti-science, the democrats in NM tried to pass (passed in the house) a bill to allow chiropractors to prescribe drugs. Might as well have added crystal healers to that as well (chiropractors are to medical science what ID "researchers" are to biology (quacks) ).

The difference we actually have use for ciropractors, but they are not supposed to prescribe drugs.
ID people are usefull only as side guards on a ship, you tie a rope around their neck and throw the overboard while in port

[yubba]

Florida 3.9 billion in the red, education they say, think of the children, maybe, some one needs to learn, how to count

[tater]

Originally Posted by Betonov

The difference we actually have use for ciropractors, but they are not supposed to prescribe drugs.
ID people are usefull only as side guards on a ship, you tie a rope around their neck and throw the overboard while in port

We have as much use of chiropractors as ID people.

They claim that all disease (all) can be treated by spinal manipulation. No chiropractic has unambiguous controlled studies showing any efficacy. Are there real medical treatments of ambiguous efficacy when they start? Sure. But not ALL real medical practice.

Chiropractic is no more "medical" than crystal healing. The NM democrats voted party line to support it as "real" medicine in the house. Luckily it got killed in a senate committee because of a single democrat who wasn't a loon.

This is not to dilute the idiocy of ID, and any laws conflating ID with science, which is transcendent . I'm just saying that you get emotion and irrationality on both sides of the aisle, just different subjects. You could add much of "environmentalism" and AGW to that as well (note that I think AGW is an entirely legitimate hypothesis, and I'm willing to be 100% on board once they have a robust, predictive model the demonstrates itself vs real observations, not vs other models—I remain scientifically skeptical until then, but completely open-minded to it (I think it is too politicized (by a lot) right now as a field, which is much of the problem)). Environmentalism is also very often entirely irrational—and I consider myself a VERY strict environmentalist from a libertarian POV... pollute as much as you like on YOUR property, but if so much as 1 part per billion touches MY property, you are invading my sovereignty. This libertarian-enviro viewpoint is 100% consistent, and requires no government fiat. Do what you like, then if I detect any evidence of your pollution, I sue you for everything you have.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by tater

We have as much use of chiropractors as ID people...

Ups, I think we have a case of bad translation. Here a chiropractic is an MD, that you go to if you have a bad back, or you had a back injury

[Platapus]

I am a believer of chiropractors. But and that is a large but, chiropractors are a technician of a treatment. They are not to be used for diagnosing your ailment. And I am totally against them being able to prescribe unless they also have an MD.

Chiropractors working with Doctors is the way to go. Each does what they are good at.

Just as an MD prescribes Physical Therapy (also a treatment) MD should be able to prescribe chiropractic treatments.

But in no way would I accept any "diagnosis" from a chiropractors just like I would not accept any "diagnosis" from a Physical Therapist.

And the concept of non-MDs prescribing drugs is just too scary.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Ups, I think we have a case of bad translation. Here a chiropractic is an MD, that you go to if you have a bad back, or you had a back injury

They are not MDs, not even in Europe. They have no basic science training at all. Their claims are entirely unproved in controlled studies. They are quacks.

They can work for 25% of people, just like any other placebo.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by tater

They are not MDs, not even in Europe. They have no basic science training at all. Their claims are entirely unproved in controlled studies. They are quacks.

They can work for 25% of people, just like any other placebo.

I still dont think we mean the same profession. My father was sent to a chiropractor by a doctor when he had his back problems. Damn, I'm confused. Oh well, I still say it's a translation problem.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Betonov

I still dont think we mean the same profession. My father was sent to a chiropractor by a doctor when he had his back problems. Damn, I'm confused. Oh well, I still say it's a translation problem.

No, it's not a translation issue. Chiropractors call themselves "doctor," but they are NOT MDs. Not anywhere.

Some insurance and HMOs in the US pay for chiropractors for stuff like back pain where at least spinal manipulation is on the appropriate part of the body. In the limited cases of back and joint pain, it has been shown in proper controlled studies to be somewhat better than placebo, but even in studies limited to back pain it is a very tenuous correlation. For everything else they claim to be able to fix (in the schools that teach chiropractic, regardless of what some practitioners might not claim to do) it's 100% BS.

A referral to a chiropractor by a real doc shows either reaching the end of what real medicine can do (frustration), or malpractice depending on who you talk to. As I said above, DOs also do some similar stuff for back pain, the difference is that they have real medical training (though most are probably people who were not smart enough to get into med school—and the chiropractors are those too dumb or lazy for DO school).

IMO, the only reason it even exists is that back pain is so very difficult to treat, period, but affects a vast number of people. In desperation, they seek out anything. For muscular back pain, acupuncture is actually more effective according to controlled studies as I recall. I've had some back problems for months now, and I've never even considered seeing a chiropractor.

[Betonov]

Made some research, it's a local thing. Chiropractic is a general term here. While my father was not sent to a chiropractic, it was SAID he was sent to a chiropractic. Really he was sent to a back specialist. They're casually known as chiropractors here, because they deal with backs. I'd have to convince 1.5 million people that they're wrong, so back specialists are going to be known as chiropractors herefor a long time.

P.S. what's the term for a back specialist ?? anyone ??

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by tater

They claim that all disease (all) can be treated by spinal manipulation.

Not all chiropractors claim that. As a data point, every single chiropractor I have seen over the past 20 + years, as not shared this view.

Are you, perhaps creating a strawman argument here?

Can you provide a citation that supports your claim that all chiropractors feel that all diseases can be treated by spinal manipulation? I would be very interested in reading that.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Not all chiropractors claim that. As a data point, every single chiropractor I have seen over the past 20 + years, as not shared this view.

Are you, perhaps creating a strawman argument here?

Can you provide a citation that supports your claim that all chiropractors feel that all diseases can be treated by spinal manipulation? I would be very interested in reading that.

That is the basis of chiropractic "science."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebral_subluxation

Minus an underlying scientific basis, guys doing stuff "manipulation" for low back pain, etc, are effectively nothing more than massage therapists. It's pure quackery. Osteopaths also sometimes do similar low back pain treatments, but actually have medical training, unlike "DCs."

I'm fine with quackery being legal, but they are not "doctors." You can always tell chiropractors, they call themselves doctor twice (Dr. So-and-so, DC), whereas real docs don't. I think it's confusing for the general public to see them allowed to be called docs. I bet a large % of the general population actually thinks they have medical training— Betonov does, for example. Regardless, letting them prescribe drugs is dangerous, and stupid.