Gaza aid flotilla raid: Turkey criticises Israel report

You are one of those nazi ufo conspiracy theory suporters i guess.

Is that a new strain of the flu you have as it appears to have affected your mind.

You dig so hard to find any flaws so you may have reason for your antagonist ideas.

The flaws were obvious, there was no digging needed.
The fact that you won't even look shows that it is you who has the problem, it could best be described as blind belief which is something you earlier ridiculously claimed to avoid.

I wonder what really hides there.

It is you that is trying to hide MH.
You are so desperate to avoid the truth of the issues that you fall back to the rather useless default position which is increasingly meaningless.

On to Penguin

q??? did I make it on Skybird's ignore list?

You must have, after all there is apparently only MH and the other here so you must be the other

On some issued I agree with him on others I just smack my head against the wall

I know, he does raise some good points on some issues, on many though he clearly appears to be certifiable.

just read the report,

And???????
Would you like to go through it piece by piece, after all it might be the best way to show the inconsistancies in its compilation and thus its questionable validity as a definitive report on the legality.
For example.....
What did yo think about the waffle included about the historicalmaritime trade under different situations and how in any way they could be relevant to the issues in hand given the nature of the changing staus the territory has undergone and the difficulty in defining its present status.

If you ask 2 experts for international law, you'll get 3 answers, if you ask 2 israeli judges, you'll get 4

Exactly, and given the admitted lack of input and the existance of other delivered and ongoing reports which also variously lack input it raises questions of the validity of the findings of this report without even looking at it, when you read it the inconsistancies and questions mount at a rather rapid pace.

But the nature doen't matter in this case.

In this case the nature and the status are core to the issue.

We can discuss if that's enough, or if the wrong good are regarded as contraband.

Israel has already made that descision, the crossing when open even at full capacity cannot accomodate the required tonnage and the changes in the restrictions show that they know their definitions of contraband at the time were wrong.
Both those issues show Israel knows the questionable legality of the blockade at the time yet are pretty much skipped over in the report.

However speaking of starvation of the palestinians or talking about a holocaust in Gaza, seen on demonstrations or heard from arab statements, is not only tasteless but more than wrong

So your issue is with some crazy statements made elsewhere.

The big problem with the good they let into,is that much stuff can be used for more than one purpose.

Yes, sugar can be used in very nasty ways, should it be banned?

The example of concrete may be the most obvious, as it can be used for construction of houses and infrastucture as well as for building shelters.

You mean cement. Like the red cross said, you can obtain cement ....at a very very high price from hamas as they are smuggling piles of it into the territory.
Which of course as well as touching on the humanitarian aid angle also comes back to the legality issue regarding effectiveness of the blockade, after all if Hamas is able to maintain their own imported supply and sell on their surplus it means that the effectiveness is not only "not really effective at all" but is also counter productive.

Point for you, I meant a blockade is not a siege

Probably because "siege" is bandied around in the media a lot, rather like your earlier "starvation" instead of malnutrition.
Slightly OT but in relation to another word youmentioned "holocaust", did you see the open letter to Fox news complaining about Murdochs network insuting Jews and diminishing the horror they faced as well as spouting the tired old anti-semitism that everyone hoped would be consigned to history by now?

now it's your turn

Basics, one state or two?
Each has its major benefits and each has its major problems.
The current 3 bits is too much like another partition fiasco from the same time and is in fact a result of what quite frankly must have been one of the dumbest political suggestions of the last century.
But to go on the two state basis as you want to avoid the minority rule problems that came about in that other mandated territory to the North.

Settlements...got to go , making "facts on the ground" makes only one fact, they are illegal and if you want to make a settlement based on legality and claim to be following international law then they have to go without question.
Besides which they are too expensive to maintain, after all thats why the unilateral pull out went ahead in Gaza.
What to do wih the illegal settlers is simple, apply the absentee laws to the huge stock of vacant housing in Israel itself and that will also lower the housing/welfare subsidies and security cost.

Priorites. Syria, biggest problem. Forget Iran for now as Syria is more important to sort. Once again illegal settlements have to go and annexation is illegal since the Nazis fell. Demilitarisation of Golan must be guaranteed with teeth and international pressure must force syria to get rid of its WMDs and guarantee a negotioted equitable agreement on water rights.
Leb, simple screw Hezballah by pulling out of half the remaining village and turn the farms area over to Lebanon, that removes their "legitimate" claims, brings compliance on another issue and pulls the rug from Syria. If you stop feeding the beast it will weaken, keep piling it with fresh food and it gorges. Don't forget that Hez is a product of a proxy war that was the product of a proxy war.

Hamas, heres the bugger, Trimble could have given a few pointers on this. You have to talk to them, you have to make concessions to them and you have to demand concessions from them. Nothing will be achieved otherwise and the current state of affairs is simply unsustainable for all involved.
The same arguements which are now being used against this process are exactly the same arguements which have been used against the same process every time up until the point that they get past the dumb obstinacy and do it.

Would you like to go on to the other States which are still officialy at war with Israel or explore the proposals put forward by the wahibis ?

[Gerald]

A new Turkish action movie based on last year's Israeli commando raid on a Gaza aid ship could further strain Ankara's already frosty relations with Israel.

The film, Valley of the Wolves: Palestine, opens this weekend. It has already stirred controversy for its simplistic portrayal of Israelis as brutal oppressors of the Palestinians.

Nine Turkish citizens were killed in the commando raid, which sparked widespread anger in Turkey.

The movie's opening in Germany, which has a large Turkish community, was delayed by a day while the official film regulator considered how to rate it. Some German politicians have condemned it as anti-Semitic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12306796

Note: 28 January 2011 Last updated at 13:44 GMT

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Vendor

The movie's opening in Germany,

Does it!? Last thing I learned about it was that it was officially banned over charges of racism and inflammatory hate propaganda. I mentioned this in one posting here or in another thread.

If they have chnaged their mind, then some lobbies have done a hgreat job again. The first movie already was an insult of human dignity, and hate-dripping racism pure. It painted Israelis as being as bad - if not worse - than Nazi war criminals and doctpors doiung experiments in KZs. From what I heared, the second movie now should be even worse, if that even is possible.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Does it!? Last thing I learned about it was that it was officially banned over charges of racism and inflammatory hate propaganda. I mentioned this in one posting here or in another thread.

If they have chnaged their mind, then some lobbies have done a hgreat job again. The first movie already was an insult of human dignity, and hate-dripping racism pure. It painted Israelis as being as bad - if not worse - than Nazi war criminals and doctpors doiung experiments in KZs. From what I heared, the second movie now should be even worse, if that even is possible.

According to the article, so it should be, but it will come out in other countries first, and then in Israel, of course

You takings bull again or tried to read between lines again and came up with UFO theory.

Your very silly assumptions are there throughout the topic in plain writing by yourself for all to see.

Israel can survive here only from position of strength we never will be welcomed here.

Which is why your views are anti Israel as you support measures which are not only weakening the State but demonstrating the weakness in a very public manner.

It definitely brought some peace to southern Israel.

In a set of questions that can only have one possible answer you balk at facing facts
That shows all that needs to be said, you simply cannot face reality and either avoid issues raised or simply lie and throw about baseless accusations.
Get well soon, that flu must have gone right to the head.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Your very silly assumptions are there throughout the topic in plain writing by yourself for all to see.
.

Really?

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Which is why your views are anti Israel as you support measures which are not only weakening the State but demonstrating the weakness in a very public manner.

Quite apposite.
Try to prove otherwise for once

Originally Posted by Tribesman

In a set of questions that can only have one possible answer you balk at facing facts
That shows all that needs to be said, you simply cannot face reality and either avoid issues raised or simply lie and throw about baseless accusations.

You did not rise any issues so far....you only wrote remarks as "layer" or "start thinking" while trying to find in any thing that Israel does some evil doing just because it doesn't feet your view what ever it may be.

Really?

Yes, plainly.

Try to prove otherwise for once

You proved it for me yourself but are too blind to see.

You did not rise any issues so far

So you havn't made any claims and I havn't raised any issues??????

You can't help lying can you, have you thought of seeking help?

while trying to find in any thing that Israel does some evil doing just because it doesn't feet your view what ever it may be.

You are flailing about blindly, you appear totally clueless which really is quite an achievement, not a good achievement but a truly astounding one none the less.

[MH]

Originally Posted by MH

Really?


Quite apposite.
Try to prove otherwise for once


You did not rise any issues so far....you only wrote remarks as "layer" or "start thinking" while trying to find in any thing that Israel does some evil doing just because it doesn't feet your view what ever it may be.

So you keep om answering me....go join the four world story thread some really serious issues await your attention.
Have fun and thnx

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Vendor

According to the article, so it should be, but it will come out in other countries first, and then in Israel, of course

It did start indeed. The ban has been changed into an age 18 movie. Some cinemas whom got offered the movie seem to voluntarily boycot it. It seems it also is shown on none of the major stages here, but in small niche cinemas only.

The scaring thing is that reports from Turkey that where on TV yesterday showed interviews with movie visitors there - and the answers show that most people seem to take it's narration as a documentary fact and say it displays how reality really is.

Well, hate propaganda.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Skybird

It did start indeed. The ban has been changed into an age 18 movie. Some cinemas whom got offered the movie seem to voluntarily boycot it. It seems it also is shown on none of the major stages here, but in small niche cinemas only.

The scaring thing is that reports from Turkey that where on TV yesterday showed interviews with movie visitors there - and the answers show that most people seem to take it's narration as a documentary fact and say it displays how reality really is.

Well, hate propaganda.

Yes,it sucks....

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Vendor

The film, Valley of the Wolves: Palestine, opens this weekend. It has already stirred controversy for its simplistic portrayal of Israelis as brutal oppressors of the Palestinians.
.....
The movie's opening in Germany, which has a large Turkish community, was delayed by a day while the official film regulator considered how to rate it. Some German politicians have condemned it as anti-Semitic.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12306796

mostly accurate, but there is no "official film regulator" here, lol. Films get rated by the industry themselves, comparing to the mpaa in the US. Their age ratings however are mostly legal binding .

Originally Posted by Skybird

Does it!? Last thing I learned about it was that it was officially banned over charges of racism and inflammatory hate propaganda. I mentioned this in one posting here or in another thread.

When you describe something, make it accurate and not look like films gets banned by a snip of the finger in Germany. I dont know what your sources are, but a ban of the film was not in stated anywhere. The whole thing revolved around the question if the film gets a rating from the german movie rating organization FSK or not.
Please check out the difference between rated 18, not rated, indexed (indiziert), and confiscated (beschlagnahmt). You'll find a good overwiew here: http://www.medienzensur.de/
What you descibe as banned would mean that a movie is violating german laws, and would eventually be forbidden. This means in reality that the movie must not be shown in public, nor that its' distribution is allowed. The posession is still legal, even in the case of being banned.
When a film is not rated, or put on index, it is still possible to watch him in cinema, however no minors and no advertisement would be allowed.

Originally Posted by Skybird

It did start indeed. The ban has been changed into an age 18 movie.

There was no ****ing ban! How can it change then?
I am very sensitive when it comes to censorship issues, that's why I think it's impoprtant to go with the facts.
And I find it rather odd that the same people who cry "suppression of speech", when it comes to their own opinion are the same people who demand censorship when it comes to other voices... They want the same laws, which are used against them, to use against opposing views.

[Skybird]

Penguin,

FYI, I took the info on that ban from one of the major German newspapers, though I cannot tell you exactly which one it was. I do a daily scan of the headlines, and if interested the according articles, of Die Welt, FAZ, Tagesspiegel, Focus, Der Spiegel, Die Zeit, Westfälische Nachrichten, Frankfurter Rundschau and occasionally some others, plus a dozen international ones, also some spwecialised sites and blogs and political magazines and economic sites. From any of these German ones the news was coming. It apparently was a mislead news message, okay. I cannot change that, nor am I responsible for it having been wrong. It was not the first time and it will not have been the last time the news said something wrong (and I still cannot say for sure that the ban was not considered in the beginning, and then given up: here in Münster for example one cinema was told to withdraw the movie from its' planned previews: and it did, but the director refused to also take off the posters in the windows, already assuming that the order was in doubt, obviously, this little sidestory I have read in the Westfälische Nachrichten for sure, some days after the news on the ban in the same or any other German paper).

If all this is a problem for you, well, so be it. I just referred to news as was available when I did.

BTW, there are some movies that are not only banned from display and distribution while being legal to own, but that you also may not legally own at all in Germany. The movie "Jud Süss" that I referred to, is such a movie. Such movies are banned not by the Freiwillige Selbstkontrolle, but by authorities ranking higher. The FSK is just a consumer "protection" censorship, no guard to protect criminal laws and constitutional rules.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Does it!? Last thing I learned about it was that it was officially banned over charges of racism and inflammatory hate propaganda. I mentioned this in one posting here or in another thread.

If they have chnaged their mind, then some lobbies have done a hgreat job again. The first movie already was an insult of human dignity, and hate-dripping racism pure. It painted Israelis as being as bad - if not worse - than Nazi war criminals and doctpors doiung experiments in KZs. From what I heared, the second movie now should be even worse, if that even is possible.

I think It's a B movie,crap

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

You must have, after all there is apparently only MH and the other here so you must be the other




Settlements...got to go , making "facts on the ground" makes only one fact, they are illegal and if you want to make a settlement based on legality and claim to be following international law then they have to go without question.
Besides which they are too expensive to maintain, after all thats why the unilateral pull out went ahead in Gaza.
What to do wih the illegal settlers is simple, apply the absentee laws to the huge stock of vacant housing in Israel itself and that will also lower the housing/welfare subsidies and security cost.

Whole stock of vacant housing in Israel?
Where you take your info from Al Jazira?
The whole issue of territories is about Israeli security.
The "dream" of of settling west bank has no hold in reality for most Israelis and is not the reason for us being there.
Who will guarantee my well benign when If border with PA will run 2 km from my house.
Do you think that maintain this kind of security will be cheaper?
Will the UN and EU intervene when mortal shells and rockets fall on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.
Will UN Back Israel if military action style "Cast Lead" will be needed?
All UN can do is talk and send rice to third world coutures while trying to maintain political correctness keeping every one happy.
Can the PA guarantee Israeli security?
Who will guarantee that PA will still be in power tomorrow.
From my point of vew West Bank settelments and Israeli army there are scurity buffer keeping truble away from hart of Israel.
Your thinking is typical European naive way that has no hold in reality.
From my point of view at current state of matters its a suicide.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Priorites. Syria, biggest problem. Forget Iran for now as Syria is more important to sort. Once again illegal settlements have to go and annexation is illegal since the Nazis fell. Demilitarisation of Golan must be guaranteed with teeth and international pressure must force syria to get rid of its WMDs and guarantee a negotioted equitable agreement on water rights.
Leb, simple screw Hezballah by pulling out of half the remaining village and turn the farms area over to Lebanon, that removes their "legitimate" claims, brings compliance on another issue and pulls the rug from Syria. If you stop feeding the beast it will weaken, keep piling it with fresh food and it gorges. Don't forget that Hez is a product of a proxy war that was the product of a proxy war.
?

You have lot of faith in international community but Israeli have less and less.
We simply can not base decisions on faith in international community.
Naive thinking again.
think again.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Hamas, heres the bugger, Trimble could have given a few pointers on this. You have to talk to them, you have to make concessions to them and you have to demand concessions from them. Nothing will be achieved otherwise and the current state of affairs is simply unsustainable for all involved.
The same arguements which are now being used against this process are exactly the same arguements which have been used against the same process every time up until the point that they get past the dumb obstinacy and do it.

Would you like to go on to the other States which are still officialy at war with Israel or explore the proposals put forward by the wahibis ?

You have to talk to hammas?
Hammas ideology can not allow to make any substential compromise worth the paper writen on.
So whats the point.

I really hoped that you would surprise me but its all typical bull.

Whole stock of vacant housing in Israel?
Where you take your info from Al Jazira?

You really are on a run with silly assumptions ain't ya, you should perhaps quit while you are still stuck struggling at the starting blocks.
Or don't you realise your government has departments which funnily enough produce data...on strange things like errrrr....housing

The whole issue of territories is about Israeli security.

Bull, its about land.
Every settlement in the territories requires a buffer for security, then they build out into the buffer which means they need a new buffer for security, then they build out into the new buffer which means they need a new buffer.
Plus of course it needs roads which need their own buffer for security and the buffer needs its own roads for access which require their own buffer for security....thats why the land grabs are such a drain on the finances.
If it was about security they wouldn't permit citizens to move into the zones as it would be courting danger.

The "dream" of of settling west bank has no hold in reality for most Israelis

I refer you back to the earlier statement about the nuts and the disproportianate influence they exert.

Who will guarantee my well benign when If border with PA will run 2 km from my house.

Who will guarantee your well being if you are 40km away?

Will the UN and EU intervene when mortal shells and rockets fall on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Did you read what was written?

Will UN Back Israel if military action style "Cast Lead" will be needed?

I hope not as "cast lead" was a disaster.

Can the PA guarantee Israeli security?

Can Israel guarantee Israeli security?

Who will guarantee that PA will still be in power tomorrow.

Are they even in power today?

From my point of vew West Bank settelments and Israeli army there are scurity buffer keeping truble away from hart of Israel.

see above

Your thinking is typical European naive way that has no hold in reality.

As your view is by its very nature unsustainable impractical and unjustifiable does that make you naive or european or just detatched from reality?

We simply can not base decisions on faith in international community.
Naive thinking again.
think again.

Your whole existance is dependant on the international community.
Are you so naive or deeply in denial that you can't see it?

You have to talk to hammas?

There is no other viable option.

Hammas ideology can not allow to make any substential compromise worth the paper writen on.

The same as is said throughout history until it is proven wrong again and again.

So whats the point.

Errrrrr....you have no other viable options.

I really hoped that you would surprise me but its all typical bull.

And I really hoped you would think, but you are in typical closed minded lockstep, not quite as bad a Dimitrius was here but not that far off when you scrape the surface.