torpedo loadout

Catfish · 01-28-11, 01:20 PM

Hi there,
now that is what i am talking about the whole time !

When you read the books of the commanders or crew (and there are some) you immediately realize how they were able to wreak havoc on convoys in the first years of the war.

1 out of 10 destroyers had radar until 1941 and it was not much better until 1942, a convoy usually had some 3 escorts at all first, maybe one destroyer, a corvette and a derelict vessel pressed into service. If there was a "new" Flower class corvette its top speed was 16 knots, and the boats just outran them - if they were seen at all. They could see their enemy much better from close from the water surface, than vice versa.

Doenitz had told his men again and again :

"Go in surfaced as fast as possible, but also keep the wake as small as possible in moonlit nights, keep your silhouette low (from the front or rear), attack against the moon so the enemy stands out against the light ! [...]
Your low silhouette will not be spotted from the elevated deck of an escort or a freighter against the dark sea.
If you spot an escort they will only spot you minutes later, if at all. They will sometimes not see you at 50 meters running alongside -
GO IN, you will NOT BE SEEN ! ..."

And they did. They went through the destroyer "screens", often ran parallel within the convoy at the same speed, unseen by merchants or escorts, carefully picking out targets, course and speed, and even leaving the convoy surfaced again. In unescorted convoys they ran with the ships, taking them out with the deck gun. There are hundreds of reports in the early war of doing exactly that. If they got in real trouble they dived, but only then. Even if someone saw them they would just run at the other side of a merchant, blocking the escort's sight until it vanished in the night again.
And one word about the guns installed on merchant ships: Exactly two U-boats were damaged by merchant guns, in the whole war. One of it was scuttled.

The british had their ASDIC, but they were completely overrun by torpedo boats attacking with 18 knots at the surface, their ASDIC did not help them at all.
And again: Not much radar, inferior systems and sometimes none at all. Repair lists of 39 show how often the few radar-equipped ships were in dock with their radar unusable, due to storm damage, electrical failures and generally poor design in the early war.

Those conditions certainly changed during the war, but when the odds turned against the U-boats in late 1942, they found themselves new hunting grounds before the US coast in 1943.

And SH5 ?
I just happened to again experience the destroyers in october 1939, 8 (EIGHT!) full-blown destroyers for an 8-ship "convoy", all with radar also working under 1000 meters (in reality the radar beam would be useless from ownship to 1000 meters), but with me surfaced in fog and storm (!) with a visibility of 50 meters ALL destroyers were at my exact location within 5 minutes. All, at the spot. They also kept firing "blind" through the fog from some 200 meters away, only that every shell hits.
MY visibility was 50 meters, but theirs was 20 kilometers. I even received messages from merchants that obviously had spotted me without me never seeing them. It was the other way round, and the way it is now this is ridiculous, even in 1945.

Ok, it's a game

Greetings,
Catfish

Zedi · 01-28-11, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hi there....
I even received messages from merchants that obviously had spotted me without me never seeing them. It was the other way round, and the way it is now this is ridiculous, even in 1945.

....

Is the one of the main reason why I dont use TDW UI.
UI should be about interface, nothing more.

stoianm · 01-28-11, 02:06 PM

Hi,

Now i made an ideea how to chose my torpedo loaudout.

Many thanks for all your posts!

Jaguar · 02-24-11, 12:13 PM

"A further factor was to select the right torpedo for the job, which became increasingly complicated as the war progressed. Thus, in the early days of the war each U-Boat´s load of torpedoes was a simple matter, consisting of either G7a or G7b, but in May 1943 BdU laid down that the load for a Type VIIC would be:

- Forward: four TI FaT I (G7a) plus six T III (G7e);
- Aft: two T III FaT II (G7e)

By April the following year this had changed to:

- Forward: three TV (G7es) (Zaunkonig) plus either five LuT or two FaT I plus three FaT II;
- Aft: two TV (G7es) (Zaunkonig) "

Source: U-Boats History Development and Equipment by David Miller

Catfish · 01-28-11, 04:09 PM

Hello,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnum

Is the one of the main reason why I dont use TDW UI.
UI should be about interface, nothing more.

Hmm, to shut it off because it kills immersion is one thing, but if you have it on, you can clearly see what the sim or the AI in the sim "sees" !

It is an indicator what happens inside detection-wise

It is highly improbable to say at least, that a merchant sees you in fog, if you yourself do not see him. Now imagine what the destroyers "see" in SH5, in dense fog ...

Greetings,
Catfish

Trevally. · 01-28-11, 04:21 PM

I may be wrong here but,

I think that TDW could not adjust the IRAI mod by date. So we had to have impoved escorts and anti-uboat tactics from the start of the war or not at all.

For the message "u-boat spotted" - I think that your boat is not spotted. This was added by the script scanning a distance from your boat and detecting contacts. If contacts were found there was a %chance that they would send a message "spotted".
I have not yet read the note from patch 6.3.6 but I think there are options to reduce or even stop this from happening.

TheDarkWraith · 01-28-11, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevally.

I may be wrong here but,

I think that TDW could not adjust the IRAI mod by date. So we had to have impoved escorts and anti-uboat tactics from the start of the war or not at all.

For the message "u-boat spotted" - I think that your boat is not spotted. This was added by the script scanning a distance from your boat and detecting contacts. If contacts were found there was a %chance that they would send a message "spotted".
I have not yet read the note from patch 6.3.6 but I think there are options to reduce or even stop this from happening.

if we could 'clone' a GR2 file and reassign all the IDs to new IDs we could solve this problem of uber destroyers and escorts at beginning of war. By cloning it then I could readjust all the sensors to dumb down the AI so they are more realistically modeled in the early years. Just haven't figured out how to change IDs in the GR2 file yet.

Catfish · 01-28-11, 06:06 PM

Hello TDW,

this was in no way meant to criticize the mod, indeed the uncertainty now given to the player is top notch, even if it's too hard yet, in '39.
Are different sensors/detection systems with developing capabilities modeled, in vanilla SH5 - and in your mod ?

Apart from the time the current situation is based on, like "Happy times", or not-so-happy-times late 1944 which is a diffrent problem, detection and sensor-wise :

Problem is like with sea state, weather, torpedoed ships the sim does not save a lot of other conditions and settings, so when you come back loading a saved game you may be in a raging storm, while having saved in perfectly calm seas.

So:

1. Could it be that the destroyer AI simply does not know which sea state it is in as well - i mean you saved in calm weather and reload into a storm - but the destroyers are still in their saved "calm seas state" mode, and can thus see you while you don't ?

2. Do the destroyers generally see worse in bad weather/storm/fog/night, or does it not influence the AI - or asked the other way round - is any detection dependent on different weather conditions ?

3. Would it be possible to disable radar in very early conditions on say 3 of 4 escorts

4. Is the radar blindness when closer than 1000 meters modelled in vanilla, or mod ?

Anyway i lke this very much !

Thanks and greeting,
Catfish

TheDarkWraith · 01-28-11, 06:12 PM

(taken from IRAI v0.29):

[Visual]
Detection time=2.0 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=1.0 ;(0..1) min detection threshold double detection time.
Fog factor=0.85 ;[>=0]
Light factor=1.25 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=50.0 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=8 ;[kt]
Min Signal Strength=0.1
Night Sensitivity Factor=0.3
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=0

This is all the AI gets to work with. See how limited it is? There's not much we can do to affect it's behavior weather wise, sea state wise, etc. I have the waves factor, fog factor, and light factors set very high to 'dumb down' the AI as much as possible yet still give a challenge.

TheDarkWraith · 01-28-11, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

3. Would it be possible to disable radar in very early conditions on say 3 of 4 escorts

Anyway i lke this very much !

Thanks and greeting,
Catfish

If I could clone GR2 files and change the IDs (cause a clone needs new unique IDs) then via the ship's sns and eqp files we could make the AI change over time (years) thus modelling correctly the progress of allied radar/sonar/hydrophone. But until I can do that we are stuck with what we have.

TheDarkWraith · 01-28-11, 04:22 PM

the game does not make the current environment conditions available to scripts. Thus I have no way of knowing whether it's foggy, rainy, sunny, etc. The radio messages were added because people wanted them. I did the best I could do given what little is available to use from the game.

01-28-11, 04:21 PM	#6
Trevally. Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: AN1536 (Orkney) Posts: 5,451 Downloads: 166 Uploads: 28	I may be wrong here but, I think that TDW could not adjust the IRAI mod by date. So we had to have impoved escorts and anti-uboat tactics from the start of the war or not at all. For the message "u-boat spotted" - I think that your boat is not spotted. This was added by the script scanning a distance from your boat and detecting contacts. If contacts were found there was a %chance that they would send a message "spotted". I have not yet read the note from patch 6.3.6 but I think there are options to reduce or even stop this from happening. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Trevally Mods for SH5

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01-28-11, 01:20 PM	#1
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,799 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Hi there, now that is what i am talking about the whole time ! When you read the books of the commanders or crew (and there are some) you immediately realize how they were able to wreak havoc on convoys in the first years of the war. 1 out of 10 destroyers had radar until 1941 and it was not much better until 1942, a convoy usually had some 3 escorts at all first, maybe one destroyer, a corvette and a derelict vessel pressed into service. If there was a "new" Flower class corvette its top speed was 16 knots, and the boats just outran them - if they were seen at all. They could see their enemy much better from close from the water surface, than vice versa. Doenitz had told his men again and again : "Go in surfaced as fast as possible, but also keep the wake as small as possible in moonlit nights, keep your silhouette low (from the front or rear), attack against the moon so the enemy stands out against the light ! [...] Your low silhouette will not be spotted from the elevated deck of an escort or a freighter against the dark sea. If you spot an escort they will only spot you minutes later, if at all. They will sometimes not see you at 50 meters running alongside - GO IN, you will NOT BE SEEN ! ..." And they did. They went through the destroyer "screens", often ran parallel within the convoy at the same speed, unseen by merchants or escorts, carefully picking out targets, course and speed, and even leaving the convoy surfaced again. In unescorted convoys they ran with the ships, taking them out with the deck gun. There are hundreds of reports in the early war of doing exactly that. If they got in real trouble they dived, but only then. Even if someone saw them they would just run at the other side of a merchant, blocking the escort's sight until it vanished in the night again. And one word about the guns installed on merchant ships: Exactly two U-boats were damaged by merchant guns, in the whole war. One of it was scuttled. The british had their ASDIC, but they were completely overrun by torpedo boats attacking with 18 knots at the surface, their ASDIC did not help them at all. And again: Not much radar, inferior systems and sometimes none at all. Repair lists of 39 show how often the few radar-equipped ships were in dock with their radar unusable, due to storm damage, electrical failures and generally poor design in the early war. Those conditions certainly changed during the war, but when the odds turned against the U-boats in late 1942, they found themselves new hunting grounds before the US coast in 1943. And SH5 ? I just happened to again experience the destroyers in october 1939, 8 (EIGHT!) full-blown destroyers for an 8-ship "convoy", all with radar also working under 1000 meters (in reality the radar beam would be useless from ownship to 1000 meters), but with me surfaced in fog and storm (!) with a visibility of 50 meters ALL destroyers were at my exact location within 5 minutes. All, at the spot. They also kept firing "blind" through the fog from some 200 meters away, only that every shell hits. MY visibility was 50 meters, but theirs was 20 kilometers. I even received messages from merchants that obviously had spotted me without me never seeing them. It was the other way round, and the way it is now this is ridiculous, even in 1945. Ok, it's a game Greetings, Catfish

01-28-11, 02:06 PM	#3
stoianm Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 2,776 Downloads: 833 Uploads: 11	Hi, Now i made an ideea how to chose my torpedo loaudout. Many thanks for all your posts!

02-24-11, 12:13 PM	#4
Jaguar Officer Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: The Pampas Posts: 239 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	"A further factor was to select the right torpedo for the job, which became increasingly complicated as the war progressed. Thus, in the early days of the war each U-Boat´s load of torpedoes was a simple matter, consisting of either G7a or G7b, but in May 1943 BdU laid down that the load for a Type VIIC would be: - Forward: four TI FaT I (G7a) plus six T III (G7e); - Aft: two T III FaT II (G7e) By April the following year this had changed to: - Forward: three TV (G7es) (Zaunkonig) plus either five LuT or two FaT I plus three FaT II; - Aft: two TV (G7es) (Zaunkonig) " Source: U-Boats History Development and Equipment by David Miller

01-28-11, 06:06 PM	#8
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,799 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Hello TDW, this was in no way meant to criticize the mod, indeed the uncertainty now given to the player is top notch, even if it's too hard yet, in '39. Are different sensors/detection systems with developing capabilities modeled, in vanilla SH5 - and in your mod ? Apart from the time the current situation is based on, like "Happy times", or not-so-happy-times late 1944 which is a diffrent problem, detection and sensor-wise : Problem is like with sea state, weather, torpedoed ships the sim does not save a lot of other conditions and settings, so when you come back loading a saved game you may be in a raging storm, while having saved in perfectly calm seas. So: 1. Could it be that the destroyer AI simply does not know which sea state it is in as well - i mean you saved in calm weather and reload into a storm - but the destroyers are still in their saved "calm seas state" mode, and can thus see you while you don't ? 2. Do the destroyers generally see worse in bad weather/storm/fog/night, or does it not influence the AI - or asked the other way round - is any detection dependent on different weather conditions ? 3. Would it be possible to disable radar in very early conditions on say 3 of 4 escorts 4. Is the radar blindness when closer than 1000 meters modelled in vanilla, or mod ? Anyway i lke this very much ! Thanks and greeting, Catfish

01-28-11, 06:12 PM	#9
TheDarkWraith Black Magic Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 11,962 Downloads: 147 Uploads: 5	(taken from IRAI v0.29): [Visual] Detection time=2.0 ;[s] min detection time. Sensitivity=1.0 ;(0..1) min detection threshold double detection time. Fog factor=0.85 ;[>=0] Light factor=1.25 ;[>=0] Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0] Enemy surface factor=50.0 ;[m2] Enemy speed factor=8 ;[kt] Min Signal Strength=0.1 Night Sensitivity Factor=0.3 Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=0 This is all the AI gets to work with. See how limited it is? There's not much we can do to affect it's behavior weather wise, sea state wise, etc. I have the waves factor, fog factor, and light factors set very high to 'dumb down' the AI as much as possible yet still give a challenge.

01-28-11, 04:22 PM	#11
TheDarkWraith Black Magic Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 11,962 Downloads: 147 Uploads: 5	the game does not make the current environment conditions available to scripts. Thus I have no way of knowing whether it's foggy, rainy, sunny, etc. The radio messages were added because people wanted them. I did the best I could do given what little is available to use from the game.