Gaza aid flotilla raid: Turkey criticises Israel report

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

You do make some rather foolish assumptions.


Whats wrong with the Israeli settler/zionist(different flavours) and far right publications? Don't you read them too?

Though what you might find pretty handy for news views and reports from and about the Israeli military is the Israeli military
Amazing isn't it, whoda thunk the IDF would be on the web just like the government is

Please link?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Whats wrong with the Israeli settler/zionist(different flavours) and far right publications? Don't you read them too?

.

I don't know about the publications but ideologically speaking most of them are ready to return to 67 borders for truly peaceful solution.
I just know those guys from evry day life.
But still i guess one prefers to cling to few extreme to back the point.

I don't know about the publications but ideologically speaking most of them are ready to return to 67 borders for truly peaceful solution.

Thats a sticking point, especially with the extremes and across the board when it comes to Jerusalem itself.

But still i guess one prefers to cling to few extreme to back the point.

No, the point is to view both extremes as well as all the middle, after all its the extremes which are the problem and in both Israeli and PA elections its been the nuts who swing the balance.

Please link?

Try IDF.
or doverIDFil

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

No, the point is to view both extremes as well as all the middle, after all its the extremes which are the problem and in both Israeli and PA elections its been the nuts who swing the balance.

So you are saing that nuts are in power in Jerusalem and in West Bank?
At least you agree with al jazira.
Its not that i'm in favor of current government here but you taken it a bit to extreme as always.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Try IDF.
or doverIDFil

I still don't understand what info should i look for to back up your claims-is this again this read between the lines thingy.
Point me to the right lines at least and tell me what theological interpretation should i look for.

So you are saing that nuts are in power in Jerusalem and in West Bank?

And Gaza of course plus Tel Aviv as the status of Jerusalem is not recognised much.

Point me to the right lines at least and tell me what theological interpretation should i look for.

Where would you like to start?
Expense, recruitment, retention, exemption?
Over stretch, over commitment, unrealistic objectives?
Its nothing new, its the same problems since the 70s though over the past 20 years they have got a lot worse.

BTW can you see the obvious faults in the findings of the Turkel report? It is a very very basic flaw.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

...............status of Jerusalem is not recognised much.
.

...........that doesn't let me sleep at night.
Israel just waits for Irish republic to recognize Jerusalem as its capital.
We rally do still do.

We rally do still do.

Oh dear, you ain't thinking are you.

Repeated lobbying on the subject all over the world still hasn't got the result they want though has it, though Israel did manage to get America to eventually vote on having an embassy there......not actually have one but vote to have one.
So your "we don't care" line is shown to be complete rubbish by the actions of your nation as you have been begging around the world for decades to have that claim recognised.
You really have a habit of falling apart when you do your knee jerk defence of Israel, which is a shame as you ain't Dimitrius.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Oh dear, you ain't thinking are you.

Repeated lobbying on the subject all over the world still hasn't got the result they want though has it, though Israel did manage to get America to eventually vote on having an embassy there......not actually have one but vote to have one.
So your "we don't care" line is shown to be complete rubbish by the actions of your nation as you have been begging around the world for decades to have that claim recognised.
You really have a habit of falling apart when you do your knee jerk defence of Israel, which is a shame as you ain't Dimitrius.

Israelis got tired of justifying everything to world opinion specially the impotent EU.
I do not fall apart simply there nothing to defend.
Israel is here to stay Jerusalem is its capitol as London is UKs and its none of your business.

I do not fall apart simply there nothing to defend.

You fall apart because you cannot defend it.

Israel is here to stay Jerusalem is its capitol as London is UKs and its none of your business.

Israel isn't there to stay unless it gets established recognised borders, currently it lacks them. After all a State is defined by its borders isn't it
Jerusalem is not its recognised capital if it is not its recognised capital.
It is sui generis so it certainly isn't.
London is the UKs capital as it is recognised as the capital and that is not a matter of dispute which is why usual practices of international diplomacy follow in London where they don't in Jerusalem.
The very fact that it is purely about international diplomacy shows your "none of your business" statement to be nonsense.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

You fall apart because you cannot defend it.

.

No there is nothing to defend.
Israel is not part of your pathetic EU.
Israel has its goals and its intrests you may like it or not.
I live in this unrecognized capital quite happily with or without the favor.

Israel is not part of your pathetic EU.

Interesting.
What have I said that makes you think slagging the EU will have any impact?
It does rather reek of desperation on your part.

I live in this unrecognized capital quite happily with or without the favor.

That's better, "I" instead of "we", you sort of learnt you cannot make the "we" claim as it falls apart instantly, though still have a problem seeing that your defence of issues falls apart in that manner as you are unable to distinguish between yourself and your state, your views, its views and other citizens views.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Interesting.
What have I said that makes you think slagging the EU will have any impact?
It does rather reek of desperation on your part.
.

What ever.
Im just not for running in circles.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

That's better, "I" instead of "we", you sort of learnt you cannot make the "we" claim as it falls apart instantly, though still have a problem seeing that your defence of issues falls apart in that manner as you are unable to distinguish between yourself and your state, your views, its views and other citizens views.

What exactly fell apart.
I did not claim anything did not try to explain anything to you.
As far as i can tell you are just some antagonist.
As such there is no point in explaining anything.

Don't forget answering something like
"You call me antagonist because your claims fall apart"

[Penguin]

I've read parts of the report, I can't find many inconsistencies. I wonder how many who shout: "biased!, forged!, all its creators were paid by the israeli government!, et cetera" have actually read it. Here's the report in english: http://www.turkel-committee.gov.il/content-107.html
There is also a summary available under this link. Especially the pages 45-90 are extremely interesting, they deal with international (humanitarian) law and the naval blockade. On a side note it is also interesting is also that a WW2 style total blockade would not be allowed today under international law - ok, as if it would have hindered Adolf & friends...

There were 2 mistakes Israel did:
1. they approached the flotila too early - this gave critic's the claim: "illegal! international waters!, bla bla bla..."
2. The commandos who entered the ships were military special forces, better would have been forces who were more experience in riot/crowd control

I would like to see a report from the flotilla's perspective in this size. Especially I am looking for the answer to one question: Why the f. did the boats refuse to enter the port of Ashgod if their intention was bringing goods to the people of Gaza and not only to make propaganda?

This is the whole point: Israel is not only in an armed conflict with Hamas, it is also fighting a propaganda war - the latter is much harder to win. The media doesn't seem too eager to show pictures of trucks with goods driving into the Gaza strip, the shouters and screamers get much more air time.

I don't care if someone thinks I am a blind supporter of Israel. Some 20 years ago my opinion was nearly 180° around. It was the time of the first intifada. I also became influenced by the pictures of kids with stones versus tanks. So my opinion was very anti-zionist - in the real meaning, not like many people who cover their anti-semitism behind anti-zionism. With the years I learned much more about the conflict. It was not so much Israel's point of view which turned me around - their arguments didn't really change much, but my ears became more open for their cause. It was mostly the behaviour of the arab side which made me change my opinion.

Anyway: welcome back from the brig Tribesman - though our opinions seem to differ much in this topic

What ever.

Lame

Im just not for running in circles.

It is what you are doing and what you are supporting, which suggests that you do like it and your country likes it which is why you are still stuck with decades old issues with no progress at all

What exactly fell apart.

Nearly every point you made.

I did not claim anything did not try to explain anything to you.

You made several claims, the majority of them fell apart.

I've read parts of the report, I can't find many inconsistencies.

The main problem with the report is over the nature of the conflict and the status of the territory, which of course leads to the problem of which laws apply.
The secondary problem is the legality of the blockade in the first place, that has been partially recognised by Israel in several of their amendements to the blockade which were violating international law by blocking humanitarian aid.
The report skims over those which is why it is questionable, after all it would legitimise Hamas and their claims wouldn't it.

On a side note it is also interesting is also that a WW2 style total blockade would not be allowed today under international law

Gimpy made that mistake at the beginning of the topic, laws change and after the scale of war crimes during WWII lots of laws changed or were introduced.

There were 2 mistakes Israel did:

I disagree on the second point, special forces were best for what was being attempted.
Plus add a third which came out at the time, in that the raid didn't get the political approval it was supposed to recieve before it was launched.

Especially I am looking for the answer to one question: Why the f. did the boats refuse to enter the port of Ashgod if their intention was bringing goods to the people of Gaza and not only to make propaganda?

Because it was a propoganda exercise, and it worked far better than they could have hoped.
Israel came out with their own propoganda much of which was laughable, they should be much better at it by now.

Anyway: welcome back from the brig Tribesman - though our opinions seem to differ much in this topic

Do they?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

It is what you are doing and what you are supporting, which suggests that you do like it and your country likes it which is why you are still stuck with decades old issues with no progress at all

So tell me what you have in mind.
How you propose to solve the issues?

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Nearly every point you made.

You made several claims, the majority of them fell apart.

I did not claim anything or tried too lol.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The report skims over those which is why it is questionable, after all it would legitimise Hamas and their claims wouldn't it.

So is it good thing or bad?

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I disagree on the second point, special forces were best for what was being attempted.
Plus add a third which came out at the time, in that the raid didn't get the political approval it was supposed to recieve before it was launched.

My god....really...

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Because it was a propoganda exercise, and it worked far better than they could have hoped.
Israel came out with their own propoganda much of which was laughable, they should be much better at it by now.

You contradict your self here......


Israel never was good at the propaganda thingy.
Lying to every one is not our cup of tea it seems.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The main problem with the report is over the nature of the conflict and the status of the territory, which of course leads to the problem of which laws apply.
The secondary problem is the legality of the blockade in the first place, that has been partially recognised by Israel in several of their amendements to the blockade which were violating international law by blocking humanitarian aid.
The report skims over those which is why it is questionable, after all it would legitimise Hamas and their claims wouldn't it.

The issue is that Gaza is run by partly elected by Palestinians partly won by force government.
The government in fact is a extremist Islamic terror organization.
They oppose any compromise with Israel they oppose PA and work to undermine Palestinian Authority in west bank.
They bombed Israel for 8 years and UN did nothing=where the hell was international low then?
When Israel decided to put end to those bombing we been accused of killing civilians.
It was expected thats one of the reason for the long wait.
Israel must always prove to the world that it has restrains while terrorist because they are terrorist is expected of them nothing.
While we try to blockade them so that would be no need to kill civilians or got forbit terrorist we break international laws.
So who cares what international low says when EU twist it so suit its needs.
The twisted reality is too hard to grasp for average EU citizen anyway.
Is it maybe that EU is afraid of Islamic demonstrations on its streets?