Merchants vs Warships

[desirableroasted]

Game Tactics

The example Gargamel presents is an excellent example of "the theoretical exception proves the rule." If I encountered one ASW escort guarding a BB and a flock of large merchants, whalers, etc., in 1939, then of course the escort is the first target -- I don't care the convoy is alerted, as even their zigzagging presents no great challenge.

But I would have to know in advance it was the only escort, and I am scratching my head trying to recall an instance when I would have had that perfect knowledge.

Even in broad daylight, clear visibility, you rarely can see to the far end of the convoy, unless you use the "X-ray vision lock" exploit. So how are you to know there are no escorts? And in optimal attack conditions (dusk, moderate visibility), you sure aren't going to know.

So, without that knowledge, what do you do? You take down the sheep, not the border collies. If there is only one escort on the flock, that will become apparent soon enough.

Reality

Here, it's just logic. If the merchants are being guarded so carefully by sophisticated escorts, it must mean they are valuable and worth sinking.

And here, the price of replacement, etc, is not particularly relevant. Even cargo value is not necessarily relevant. A box of machine tools, while costing far less than a destroyer, might be essential to making 20 new ones. A merchant and a cargo of wheat don't cost much, but losing 2-3 a week can be the crucial thing in public morale. far more demoralizing than the loss of a destroyer (which might not even be reported in the papers until weeks later).

Game tactics + Reality

Escorts are just a part of the day at the office, and a distraction. My job is to sink merchants. If doing that means I have to sink an escort -- perhaps once out of 25 patrols -- fine, but it is out of necessity. I consider it a wasted torpedo.


But

I like seeing the pesky maggots go KaBoom as much as anyone. But only once in 25 patrols.

Edit

BTW, if you do like taking on escorts and battleships, be up in Narvik on April 10-13, 1940. You will get your fill of both and you will learn more than you want to know about shallow-water defense tactics.

[danexpat]

Very well put, agree 92.6%

It's a bit of a quibble to say cost of replacement isn't necessarily relevant. Obviously, it's as good a proxy as we have to try to get a handle on the value of what you destroy. Let's put it this way: if a kaleun sank the HMS Hood, would it really matter what he did the rest of his career? Of course not.

Personally, I wouldn't engage one of these wandering DD groups any more than I engage coastal merchants. I don't go after anything less valuable than a C2 unless I'm on the last leg of the trip home.

I'm of two minds on targeting the convoy escort thing for the reason you gave: you usually don't know what else is in there unless you've shadowed the thing for a long time. But at the same time, I'm usually greedy and plan on reloading and taking another bite at the apple in a few hours, so taking out the border collie is very tempting.

[U777]

Did anyone ever take a warship down by accident, as in it took the torpedo meant for a merchant?

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by danexpat

Very well put, agree 92.6%

It's a bit of a quibble to say cost of replacement isn't necessarily relevant. Obviously, it's as good a proxy as we have to try to get a handle on the value of what you destroy. Let's put it this way: if a kaleun sank the HMS Hood, would it really matter what he did the rest of his career? Of course not.

Who sank the Courageous?

Who's the leading Kaleun in tonnage?

which of those two do most people (subsimmer's) know off the top of their heads.

[desirableroasted]

Originally Posted by danexpat

Very well put, agree 92.6%

It's a bit of a quibble to say cost of replacement isn't necessarily relevant. Obviously, it's as good a proxy as we have to try to get a handle on the value of what you destroy. Let's put it this way: if a kaleun sank the HMS Hood, would it really matter what he did the rest of his career? Of course not.

Well, now you are talking apples and oranges. Hood isn't an escort, it is a national icon, and a capital ship, albeit an aging one. And, for game purposes, you can see it as a 36K ton merchant, because it reacts like a merchant. So of course you sink it.

When I say "escort" I mean naval ships that carry out anti-submarine warfare against you in the game. DDs, ASW trawlers, corvettes, etc. As I said, going after them is like going after the border collies rather than the sheep.

[Missing Name]

Most of the small warships (DD, DDE, FF, trawlers...) listed in my sig were self defense. Others were guarding convoys or ports, allowing me to reload torpedoes or even engage on the surface without fear. I would rather use my fish on a merchant or large warship (CV, CVE, CA, CL).

That said, destroyers have such low health that a torpedo makes nice fireworks.

[Tinman764]

There's a line from a documentary I watched recently that stuck in my head. It went along the lines of -
"It was a tonnage war - the aim of the KM and specifically the U-Boat fleet was to sink tonnage at a faster rate than Britain could replace it, either through building or buying."
ASW ships don't normally tip the scales as high as a merchant, therefore to stick with the "big picture" merchant shipping should always be the primary focus - in my opinion.

But in the same respect, as I thing the OP had asked it, in a quite large convoy with around 4 DDE's (I quite usually spot them with this many) you spend one torp on each escort, and its open season on the convoy. Ive done this a few times, and the funny thing is (This is early war mind you), after one sinks, they come after you in a one by one basis which is handy. Ive done it before and once only and I do say it paid off.

But as desirable said, realistic?? Very hardly

Put yourself in the shoes of that Kaluen, is firing at that 1,000 ton escort from open water worth the chance of your life??

or is sneaking in and sinking the 10,000 ton large merchant then using the confused convoy to as a screen to slip away untouched worth it more??

^This is of course if you play DiD

[Gargamel]

Another thing to consider, The kreigsmarine surface fleet was stuck in port most of the time, due mainly to them being vastly outnumbered.

If the Uboatwaffe had made a concerted effort against the warships of the RN, that may have allowed the surface raiders of the OKM to sail more often, the cruisers and battleships could inflict vast more damage against a convoy than a couple u-boats.

Of course, with Donitz only having 20 or so U-boats at the start of the war, this wasn't practical.