France's National Front picks Marine Le Pen as new head

tater · 01-16-11, 10:01 PM

I was reading their platform. I couldn't find the "right" part of it as they are protectionist.

Penguin · 01-17-11, 06:08 AM

I would do her!

Quote:

how can you accuse a french person of being a nazi?

Where in the article or this threrad was the term "Nazi" mentioned?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

I was reading their platform. I couldn't find the "right" part of it as they are protectionist.

Que? Don't get what you mean...
I could not read anything on their website since it was protected by the french language...

If you refer to their politics: I would hardly call it protectrionist. Protectionism refers solely to economic policies. The FN has far more policies than just economic ones - if they represent any economic model at all, besides "buy french only"

the_tyrant · 01-17-11, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin

Where in the article or this threrad was the term "Nazi" mentioned?

didn't know who she was, so i went on the wikipedia page for her party

Quote:

Winock also defines the FN as the conjunction of all far-right French traditions: the counter-revolutionaries, the pétainistes (collaborationists under Vichy France), fascists and members of the OAS terrorist group.

tater · 01-17-11, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin

Que? Don't get what you mean...
I could not read anything on their website since it was protected by the french language...

If you refer to their politics: I would hardly call it protectrionist. Protectionism refers solely to economic policies. The FN has far more policies than just economic ones - if they represent any economic model at all, besides "buy french only"

I read the wiki entry on the party (since I knew nothing about them other than they routinely get called "far right." I don't see them as "right" at all. Then again my benchmark for far-right would be a Libertarian (minimal government involvement in personal OR economic matters).

Nationalism is not a "right" or a "left" thing. The CCCP was every bit as nationalistic as any country or ideology described as "far right." Ditto the PRC, or any other "far left" system. So if a definition of "far right" includes nationalism, it's a bad definition. Communist states used to also source products internally by force (you had no choice in the CCCP but to "buy Soviet!"). So that's not "right," either. If they are going to describe them as "far right" I'd like to see the criteria for assigning "right" to them.

Penguin · 01-17-11, 11:56 AM

1: european political spectrum by Hans Slomp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...e_note-slomp-0

2: Nolan chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_chart

Neither in model 1, nor in the Nolan chart (designed by a libertarian), are libertarians described as right-wing.
I think the FN wikipedia article refers to the classical 1 axis spectrum, which includes not really an economic definition.

I would describe the CCCP as a state capitalistic monopoly, as the state was the only entity able to accumulate resources and act in a economical way (economical not meaning using few resources in this context, just be an economical player). The PRC has a weird mixture of state capitalism and private enterpreneurship. It is the best example that a capitalistic economy does not necessarily need political freedom.

tater · 01-17-11, 12:35 PM

What are the units on the first graph that magically puts fascism far right?

http://www.politicalcompass.org/ is a far more rational graph. Economic freedom on one axis, personal on another. Your graph seems meaningless.

Fascism has lowered economic and personal freedom. It has more economic freedom than the communist countries had, but LESS than any modern country (it was in fact a command economy—it looked like a market at first glance, but only "allowed" companies did business, so it was in no way a free market).

So fascist countries rightly belong left of modern countries in terms of economic freedoms, and are also more authoritarian (limits on personal freedom).

In the Nolamn chart, Libertarians are still on the far right of the graph. That graph is also broken because there is zero reason why the lower right should be called "right wing" (used in discussion of "normal" parties) since the normal political right (say in the US) is not the least authoritarian. Decentralized government is mutually exclusive with authoritarianism. That is the primary danger of socialism. It is not dangerous in and of itself, but central control over people's lives means you are a single despot away from ruining everyone's life. When power is decentralized, one person is very limited in what they can do.

Penguin · 01-17-11, 01:12 PM

well, the first graph's x-axis, would represent the traditional (1 axis) L-R spectrum.

The political compass is about the same as the Nolan chart, just with an axis tilt of 45°. Nolan would put fascism and communism in the lower left corner, with fascism a little more to the right maybe. Both axis' would represent the level of government interference in this model, same as in the compass' model. The world's smallest political quiz also uses this model:
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz

I scored 100/40, this pretty much describes me as a leftie

I gotta get off work now - already 1.5 hours overtime - so my economical freedom(money) interfers with my personal one (freetime)

tater · 01-17-11, 01:16 PM

The "traditional" L-R spectrum is meaningless and biased (putting nazis on the right is nothing but bias, as they are only "right" compared to Stalin).

01-17-11, 11:56 AM	#5
Penguin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Rheinische Republik Posts: 3,322 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	1: european political spectrum by Hans Slomp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...e_note-slomp-0 2: Nolan chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_chart Neither in model 1, nor in the Nolan chart (designed by a libertarian), are libertarians described as right-wing. I think the FN wikipedia article refers to the classical 1 axis spectrum, which includes not really an economic definition. I would describe the CCCP as a state capitalistic monopoly, as the state was the only entity able to accumulate resources and act in a economical way (economical not meaning using few resources in this context, just be an economical player). The PRC has a weird mixture of state capitalism and private enterpreneurship. It is the best example that a capitalistic economy does not necessarily need political freedom. Last edited by Penguin; 01-17-11 at 12:01 PM. Reason: made Nolan chart better readable

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01-16-11, 10:01 PM	#1
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I was reading their platform. I couldn't find the "right" part of it as they are protectionist.

01-17-11, 12:35 PM	#6
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	What are the units on the first graph that magically puts fascism far right? http://www.politicalcompass.org/ is a far more rational graph. Economic freedom on one axis, personal on another. Your graph seems meaningless. Fascism has lowered economic and personal freedom. It has more economic freedom than the communist countries had, but LESS than any modern country (it was in fact a command economy—it looked like a market at first glance, but only "allowed" companies did business, so it was in no way a free market). So fascist countries rightly belong left of modern countries in terms of economic freedoms, and are also more authoritarian (limits on personal freedom). In the Nolamn chart, Libertarians are still on the far right of the graph. That graph is also broken because there is zero reason why the lower right should be called "right wing" (used in discussion of "normal" parties) since the normal political right (say in the US) is not the least authoritarian. Decentralized government is mutually exclusive with authoritarianism. That is the primary danger of socialism. It is not dangerous in and of itself, but central control over people's lives means you are a single despot away from ruining everyone's life. When power is decentralized, one person is very limited in what they can do.

01-17-11, 01:12 PM	#7
Penguin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Rheinische Republik Posts: 3,322 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	well, the first graph's x-axis, would represent the traditional (1 axis) L-R spectrum. The political compass is about the same as the Nolan chart, just with an axis tilt of 45°. Nolan would put fascism and communism in the lower left corner, with fascism a little more to the right maybe. Both axis' would represent the level of government interference in this model, same as in the compass' model. The world's smallest political quiz also uses this model: http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz I scored 100/40, this pretty much describes me as a leftie I gotta get off work now - already 1.5 hours overtime - so my economical freedom(money) interfers with my personal one (freetime)

01-17-11, 01:16 PM	#8
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The "traditional" L-R spectrum is meaningless and biased (putting nazis on the right is nothing but bias, as they are only "right" compared to Stalin).