First sim?

[Gargamel]

Hi guys!

I love what the community has done for SH3 and it's progeny. I love the freeness of the world and the sims "realness" (I know, I know).

That said, the idea of a tank sim intrigues me. I'd like to get one that's frequently replayable, realistic, has a good campaign mode, along with single missions, and is cheap. I'm not a fan overly arcadish stuff, but that's not too big of a turn off.

Which ones would you recommend?

TBH, I havent read a lot of stuff in here (probably should have ) and have no real clue what all the different versions are. I do like the WW2 type stuff, but anything is okay too.

Maybe shoulda titled this MWM looking for tanks sim to enjoy long walks on the beach?

[Sledgehammer427]

It seriously depends on what you are looking for and how much you are willing to pay.

For WWII, you have a choice between Steel Fury (SF)
and T-34 Vs. Tiger.

T-34 vs Tiger, isn't very replayable, it comes with 12 missions, 6 for each side. they are all scripted, and it's only real saving graces are Zeewolf's mods and it's graphics.
Zeewolf's mods are costly. even though the games in the bargain bin, if you can find a copy, Zee's mod will set you back 60 dollars for the first year. but thats access to all of the mods he releases and yes, it costs less to renew your subscription. you can check the Kharkov thread sticked at the top to follow development.

the other option for WWII is Steel Fury, this is more playable in that the maps are large and it's quite realistic. all of the bugs have been worked out for the most part and theres a huge selection of mods. the current one is Steel Panzer 1.5 (beta) which adds a whole lot of playable tanks with more planned to be added before the official release, that is, the official release on the sukhoi forums. it's hard to find as well, but should be cheap and is well worth the price. There is a resources thread stickied at the top that I update as soon as new mods or information comes out

______________________________________

now, the devs that put out steel fury are coming out with a cold war-era tanksim called Steel Armor - Blaze of War, stickied at the top of the page.
Still in development though

Now, Skybird can come her and clarify a little more on this, but the benchmark tanksim, which all other tanksims are thankfully not judged but aspire to be.
Steel Beasts Pro Personal edition. it's modern but it's a pared down full-on military siluation, used by...militaries.
The only issue would be that it costs 125 dollars. it's apparently the best tactical simulation money can buy. eSim games knew there wouldn't be a big market, so that's why it's exorbitantly priced compared to many other computer games.

I own both TvsT and Steel Fury, Steel Fury is heavily modded but TvsT is mostly stock. I enjoy both, and as I said, Skybird knows more about Steel Beasts so I hope he can come along and offer more information.

[Skybird]

Thanks, Sledge. ON SBP I refer to the video section referred to in the SBP resources thread. The sim is almost identical with the stuff used by a dozen national Western militaries who do not invest so much into hardware simulators. They wanted it for training fire control, and managing small tank units in battle. That'S what decides the way it is, that' the priority in it'S design decisions. Focus of battle scaling ranges from platoon to company level, but you can also have full batallions and even brigade sized forces. It is easy to use and difficult to master. The realism on firecontrol systems is enormous. The challenge however lies in mastering formation coordination, making use of the terrain, and tactics. Compared to what you get, the price of that for two normal games is cheap. Support is top, developement is ongoing, with upgrades showing up every year - since early 2006.

If realism and tactics is what you want, SBP is the way to go. In the resource thread you also find my essay on how to use it in WWII-style.

This board already has plenty of topics related to SBP. All what you could want to know is already there.

[frinik]

Gargamel from what you said in your message , you wnat a game at a reasonable price, with a good number of campaigns-single missions and mods and you´re not a hard-core tank simmer then I think Sf is the way to go for you.SB is indeed the best but it´s for afficionados and it´s expensive so unless you are planning to invest the time and dedicate yourself fully to that game then it´s not for you.TvsT without ZeeWolf´s mods is not worth buying as it has little replayability and bugs and flaws.ZeeWolf´s mod offer more variety but they vost$ 50( if you join before end of Feb or $ 60 and every year you have to renew at reduced cost.SF

As it seems that you´d like to test the waters, so to speak, before plunging to see if you like tank simming then get SF.It´s cheaper than the alternatives has lots of free mods and user/made missions and will allow you perhaps to discover a new passion.Then once you´re really committed later on you might consider trying/buying SB.

SF has a free demo which you might want to download and play.TvsT used to have one but not sure if it´s still available.

Skybird might tell you if there´s one for SB( I kind of doubt though).

I own all 3 and SB is very immersive and good, solid but it's a training software turned game thus much more demanding but undeniably the best.Sim/wise SF is better for casual simmers or those you can't devote that much time or money.Plus it has lots of free mods and user/made missions.

Cheers

[Skybird]

No SBP demo, and not planned, that's why I recommend to watch a couple of videos, also MP videos.

I want to comment on the price again, although I sound like a sales director.

Including the first SB, I am constantly playing SB since roughly one decade now. SBP PE since almost five years. I remember how much money I have wasted in my younger years, in the late 80s and thorughout the 90s, for games that lasted some months, if I was unlucky just weeks. Compared to the fortune I spent there, SBP with constant addiction since ten years is cheap with a price equalling three cheap or 2 new full priced games that just lasts much shorter for the most. The game-play-for-the-buck ratio is extremely positive for SBP.

And although I do not want to start a price war here, and no rivalry between different products and different authors, I just point out that the price for the latest version of SBP equals that of two years of Zeewolf mods. If you think that people having TvT should buy Zeewolf's abonemment, then you can hardly argue against the price for SBP - it is cheaper after 2 years.

Several hundred missions are available, both SP and MP. Thinking that the claim of being a training software would go at the cost of playability or accessability for casual gamers, would be misleading, the sim is easy to run and does not handle much different than SF - but offers more depth, realism, a better AI and more diverse mission layouts and battle scales, from briagdes fighting over 400 km2 to platoons moving down a single valley against occasional single resistence. There is much more diversity. The other major difference is that you need to do much more tactical planning ahead of your missions, usually - else you get eaten without even knowing what hit you. Rambos stand chanceless here.

Video-Links:

[33lima]

If your are prepared to tolerate graphics that are somewhat outdated by Steel Fury Kharkov 1942 standards but are perfectly serviceable with user mods applied, you might also like to try Panzer Elite, preferably with the PE3 mod available here:

http://panzerelite.yuku.com/topic/482

With Panzer Elite - get the Gold edition which has a basic set of user mods on a bonus CD - you can command, drive and gun a huge variety of WW2 tanks in campaigns and missions covering British, US, German and Soviet armies, in France 1940 + 1944, Ostfront 1942-45, N. Africa 1941-43, and Italy 1943-44. Despite rather poor graphics without the mods, it has an amazing set of features including nice little details like the ability for a tank commander to indicate and hand off targets to your gunner, the facility to call in artillery or mortar fire missions, good representation of radio and intercom traffic, a simple but reasonably effective method of commanding your tank and your platoon while staying in the 3d world, and rather good animated & voiced mission briefings. Was far and away the best WW2 tank sim of the era [compared to iPanzer 44 or Panzer Commander] and a second only to the original Steel Beasts as the best tank sim, period. Even today, it's still one of the very best tank sims you can play. Sure, even the modded graphics and its and environmental sounds are well behind SF'42 and the wingman AI is sometimes a bit weak but in terms of functionality, replayability and sheer scale it's way ahead of it, and even further ahead of TvT.

Here are some vids:









The basic game you can get on eBay or probably at one of those download sites for older games. NOT to be confused with the arcade Panzer Elite Action (which has one or two adherents, tho].

Other alternatives might be the WW2 mods for Operation Flashpoint or the like, tho not really tank sims either.

[Scotty]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

Hi guys!

I love what the community has done for SH3 and it's progeny. I love the freeness of the world and the sims "realness" (I know, I know).

That said, the idea of a tank sim intrigues me. I'd like to get one that's frequently replayable, realistic, has a good campaign mode, along with single missions, and is cheap. I'm not a fan overly arcadish stuff, but that's not too big of a turn off.

Which ones would you recommend?

TBH, I havent read a lot of stuff in here (probably should have ) and have no real clue what all the different versions are. I do like the WW2 type stuff, but anything is okay too.

Maybe shoulda titled this MWM looking for tanks sim to enjoy long walks on the beach?

There is T34 vs Tiger and Steel Fury 1942 for WW2 tank sims current, I know a lot of people who still llike Panzer Elite, I have it, as well as Panzer Commander.... Panzer commander is light years ahead of PE for realism..
PE has slight better graphics, but the gunners is as fake as can be.. you can shoot a tank 900 meters away, and never have to lead off.. ther is no ballistics flight time... in Panzer Commander the gunnery is much more real, you have to lead off shot at moving targets etc..
These are older sims from,1998-1999..

the best WW2 sim now would be Steel fury 1942 for realism although with Zeewolf's $60 mod T34 vs Tiger is not too bad, but nothing like Steel Fury.. lots of mods being made for steel fury.. like most games/sims.. mods are all free, and all great

good luck

[frinik]

Sorry Scotty to contradict you but PE has ballistic flight time incorporated for quite some time now thanks to the work of BritAldo44.Moreover in almost every aspect PE is a much better sim than Panzer Commander.The proof is that after 12 years it´s got a very active modding community , it´s own forum and every aspect of the game has been improved.Not tomention dozens of new maps, missions and scenarios. On the other hand who plays Panzer Commander nowadays????I haven´t heard anybody in the last 5 years.I have played both and it´s not contest.

But I assume you would want to aply the latest so PE would be off your list.

Otherwise in terms of modern tank sims only T72 Balkans on Fire-Iron Warriors is cheap but with only the T34, T55 and T62 playable and very small scale missions it ain´t very satisfying.

[Scotty]

Originally Posted by frinik

Sorry Scotty to contradict you but PE has ballistic flight time incorporated for quite some time now thanks to the work of BritAldo44.Moreover in almost every aspect PE is a much better sim than Panzer Commander.The proof is that after 12 years it´s got a very active modding community , it´s own forum and every aspect of the game has been improved.Not tomention dozens of new maps, missions and scenarios. On the other hand who plays Panzer Commander nowadays????I haven´t heard anybody in the last 5 years.I have played both and it´s not contest.

But I assume you would want to aply the latest so PE would be off your list.

Otherwise in terms of modern tank sims only T72 Balkans on Fire-Iron Warriors is cheap but with only the T34, T55 and T62 playable and very small scale missions it ain´t very satisfying.

Well that shows ya how out of touch I am then, I have not played PE in a good 6-7 years or maybe more... the ballistics part is what turned me off the most... I still have that old red box up in attic heck I may dust it off just for fun... Yet with SF1942, it is maybe too late..

Thank you for giving me this info, and thus so I will at least not give outdated info to would be tank simmers.

Yeah, no one plays PzC anymore for sure. it was surpassed a year after it came out 1998 by PE in 1999.. I remember it well..

have a good one

[33lima]

yeah the first video link I posted shows Panzer Elite gunnery with time of flight added, he's just firing at open countryside but at least you can see the tracer trajectory.

PzC I quite liked too but the lack of tracers spoiled its gunnery for me, even vanilla PE's instantaneous white puff trails looked better. Didn't mind PzC's lack of infantry much but the fact that the ONLY other kinds of troops in the game were AT guns in silly bunkers, was a big minus too. Plus many of the tank 3d models were poor - Sherman 76s and Fireflies were just 75mm turrets with long barrels, that sort of thing. PE even out of the box had so much more and was a lot more realistic in nearly every respect.

Functionally, Panzer Elite in its current state is still one of the very best tank sims you can play, just as modded Red Baron 3d and EAW are still some of the best combat flight sims available, such are their basic strengths, notwithstanding superior graphics, AI, flight models or whatever.

[Scotty]

Originally Posted by 33lima

yeah the first video link I posted shows Panzer Elite gunnery with time of flight added, he's just firing at open countryside but at least you can see the tracer trajectory.

PzC I quite liked too but the lack of tracers spoiled its gunnery for me, even vanilla PE's instantaneous white puff trails looked better. Didn't mind PzC's lack of infantry much but the fact that the ONLY other kinds of troops in the game were AT guns in silly bunkers, was a big minus too. Plus many of the tank 3d models were poor - Sherman 76s and Fireflies were just 75mm turrets with long barrels, that sort of thing. PE even out of the box had so much more and was a lot more realistic in nearly every respect.

Functionally, Panzer Elite in its current state is still one of the very best tank sims you can play, just as modded Red Baron 3d and EAW are still some of the best combat flight sims available, such are their basic strengths, notwithstanding superior graphics, AI, flight models or whatever.

I would not call PE out of the box better.. the gunnery was more fake than any arcade game.. I mean instant flight time brought me away from it... I like the challnge to have to lead off on something that is 700 meters away... kind of like REAL life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not point at it, adjust for spin and CLICK=DEAD instantly..
Heck, Battlezone of 1980 by Atari was even more realistic.. you did have flight time (slow, but it had it) in it.

The infantry if you want to call it that.. looked like cardboard figures moving around the battlefield.. I mean the enemy in Wolfenstein 3D of 1991 looked much more real.. almost made a whole decade earlier.

So I would not agree with you about "out of the box" PE!

I reinstalled PE some years later 2003-2005, but never seen a flight time mod then, I eventually gave up. Also Panzer Commander would not run on a Barton core CPU of the time later I figured out a CPU slow down utility helped big time.. The blocky forrests were hard to get used to.

As far as Panzer Elite being the most realistic tank sim NOW??? From the mods you guys tell me, you may be right..

Sometimes out of the box sims are worse than others, but modded, the one that was lesser, ended up the best.
Seems PE has come a long way.. like I said, thanks for enlighten me on this.
maybe it should Be Steel Fury Kharkov 1942 vs Panzer Elite (and not T34-vs-Tiger)
----------------------

Red Baron 3D and EAW, used to play those A LOT..even online some.. what has happened with them in the past 6-7 years.?? how are they with mods vs say Il-2 1946 with mods?

later

[Skybird]

Panzer Elite was released in 1999. Already the first Steel Beasts ten years ago was superior to it. I know PE, I still have the CD somewhere, and back then, eleven years ago, it was one of the top titles of the tank genre ever released. But it is not competitive today anymore. Let's not confuse newbies to the tank genre with titles which are hopelessly outdated nowadays. Else we end up recommending even Conqueror ( ) for the Acorn Archimedes and Amiga. Not that Conqueror was not a superb game - for 1988.

I still remember the terrible, harsh shaking of the perspective when looking out of the turret with the tank moving. It made you almost seasick.

[frinik]

I agree with you Skbird PE was the best tank sim GAME of its time and while a classic it´s still a charming old lady trying hard to keep up with young chicks.

SB is the classic of tank SIMs and will probably remain for the years to come.

I would not recommend PE to somebody new to tanksims unless you really want to feel like it is to play an oldie a bit like those driving vintage cars

SB I would only recommend if you are really interested in becoming a hard core, serious tank simmer to justify the investment in time and money otherwise I say SF because its affordable and while imperfect the best, up-to-date WWII tank sim GAME currently available.

[33lima]

Originally Posted by Scotty

I would not call PE out of the box better.. the gunnery was more fake than any arcade game.. I mean instant flight time brought me away from it... I like the challnge to have to lead off on something that is 700 meters away... kind of like REAL life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not point at it, adjust for spin and CLICK=DEAD instantly..
Heck, Battlezone of 1980 by Atari was even more realistic.. you did have flight time (slow, but it had it) in it.

The infantry if you want to call it that.. looked like cardboard figures moving around the battlefield.. I mean the enemy in Wolfenstein 3D of 1991 looked much more real.. almost made a whole decade earlier.

So I would not agree with you about "out of the box" PE!

I reinstalled PE some years later 2003-2005, but never seen a flight time mod then, I eventually gave up. Also Panzer Commander would not run on a Barton core CPU of the time later I figured out a CPU slow down utility helped big time.. The blocky forrests were hard to get used to.

As far as Panzer Elite being the most realistic tank sim NOW??? From the mods you guys tell me, you may be right..

Sometimes out of the box sims are worse than others, but modded, the one that was lesser, ended up the best.
Seems PE has come a long way.. like I said, thanks for enlighten me on this.
maybe it should Be Steel Fury Kharkov 1942 vs Panzer Elite (and not T34-vs-Tiger)
----------------------

Red Baron 3D and EAW, used to play those A LOT..even online some.. what has happened with them in the past 6-7 years.?? how are they with mods vs say Il-2 1946 with mods?

later

RB3d with either the Western Front, Blue Max, Hell's Angels or other mods is still one of the best. Graphics even modded are primitive by current standards, the planes still swirl about the sky a bit, friendlies 'ghost" thru each other, and the AI has repetitive routines and still can't kill you if you fly at ground level, but even so, the range of flyables is supreme, the feeling that you're really operating in a living battlefront with all kinds of flights going about their business is as utterly immersive as ever it was, and the nice little touches like the escape and medal award videos are as present as they are absent in more modern sims where Eye Candy is King.

Much the same with EAW.

Il2 I have played a lot [offline, not into MP] in all its successive variants and I still hate its improved but still small-scale and utterly soul-less campaigns, its truly horrible external engine sounds and its frustratingly game-killer 'uber' AI gunners. Rowan's BoB [1 or 2] and Microprose's B17 Mighty Eighth I still rate as much the best pre-jet-age combat flight sims you can play today - now, those ARE sims, whose less serious shortcomings you can more readily forgive. Modded CFS2 maybe next, then modded EAW or modded RB3d, then modded CFS3. CFS3/OFF [WW1] looks like a really good bet, I helped Winding Man with some of the early research for that but my always-budget hardware didn't cope well with the freeware version and while my kit is slightly less budget nowadays, I haven't invested in the payware OFF yet. The Third Wire stuff like First Eagles and WoV is fun for a blast now and then but they all have soul-less, un-immersive campaigns [Yankee Air Pirates might be an improvement?] and even the WW1 planes explode like arcade targets. Rise of Flight looks good but the substance seems rather limited - after RB3d levels of flyables, a Camel, D7 and SPAD (and Dr1 at extra cost] are really big step in the wrong direction, no way compensating for the eye candy.

I would not write off PE, even without time of flight - which it now has - and even in comparison with current tanksims. The PE tanks still tend to jerk about like they are made of cardboard on uneven terrain and the graphics are inferior even modded but good graphics do not a good sim make, nor does a lack of the latest eye candy make a bad one. PE still has many of the other elements that DO make a good [tank] sim. Elements that more modern games do less well. In SF42, the gunner sight view jerks not much better than PE's when you move, much as you'd expect if you were staring down a magnified sight in an unstabilised mount in a vehicle with basic suspension moving cross-country.

For that matter, there is much more to tanksims than gunnery, popular tho that is. I prefer to play as TC and troop/platoon commander and if the sim lets you do that effectively, then that's a big plus. PE and SB are two of the few sims that reasonably realistically simulate the TC and troop commander roles. I loved M1TP2 but you really HAD to play as from the gunner role [when you weren't at the Ivis screen 'watching little red and blue dots shoot pixels at one another' as one reviewer put it, and trying to stop the horrible uber artillery killing your light forces while killing the enemy's with yours]. SF42 seems to work best that way too, played as gunner but with the magical ability to give TC orders to your driver - fun but not so good as a simulation. I have yet to force myself to play SF42 from the TC position alone, maybe it is actually quite good at doing that, but the lack of simulated radio traffic apart from the canned and repetitive chatter, and the reliance on dropping out of the 3d world to the 2d map to exercise control of your troop/platoon, seem to make SF42, despite the fact that's the role it casts you in, a much inferior simulator to PE of the platoon/troop commander role. In that role, SF42 is much better than TvT, but PE is much, much better than either.

Original SB was best in every technical respect - at least when they finally modelled the 'moving reticle' - but the canned missions and lack of most of the features that made RB3D, EAW, F4, Mig Alley, BoB or B17-2 great sims, limited its appeal for me, and I daresay SB Pro PE would be the same. The empahsis on max fidelity with the M1 and Leo and the consequent certainty you were never gonna get even a basic playable Chieftain, Centurion or T72, to me was devotion taken to too much an extreme - I'm more of a survey sim person I guess, variety the spice of life and all that. Anyway, like great graphics, technical perfection isn't everything. The tanksim you chose depends on what you value most. For me, it's SF42 first, PE a very close second, SB third. TvT [which I also have] is so very limited as to be of similarly limited value even to a big Tiger fan like me, with the Zeewolf mod a WiP. T72 BoF/IW I also have but while I like T72s like TvT it's really rather severely limited as a tanksim - you just play your own tank in canned missions, no radio no comand and control, no nuthin'. Others will differ.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by 33lima

Original SB was best in every technical respect - at least when they finally modelled the 'moving reticle' - but the canned missions and lack of most of the features that made RB3D, EAW, F4, Mig Alley, BoB or B17-2 great sims, limited its appeal for me, and I daresay SB Pro PE would be the same. The empahsis on max fidelity with the M1 and Leo and the consequent certainty you were never gonna get even a basic playable Chieftain, Centurion or T72,

to me was devotion taken to too much an extreme.

First, despite the obvious lack of a dynamic campaign, but having a fantastic mission editor (which allows much better designing of enemy tactics and AI than a dynamic campaign will ever be capable to produce), what are the obvious lacking features of the sims you listed and that SBP-PE is missing? Just curious what you mean.

Second, have you ever taken the time to check the number of playable vehicles and tanks in SBP-PE? Do you know that all other vehicles, including the Chally, four versions of the T-72, and several tanks now from the 50s and 60s, can be controlled at least from the outside view? And that some of them, namely the T72, are on the to do-list to be added interior playability?

Originally Posted by SBP resource thread

Vehicles in bold and italic are crewable. not all crewables have full 3D interior, those of which I am sure by memory that they have, have an "*" attached. "(*)" means a 3D interior with reduced functionality.

Since version 2.538, SBP simulates the Lemur RWS, coming with a fully modelled control desk for the player, featuring a cal .50 or a 40mm grendade launcher. The six vehicles allowing to be optionally equipped with this RWS have " (Lemur) " in brackets attached to their listing.

SBP knows crewable vehicles, and non-crewables. Both red and blue forces can be made up of both types, and Russian and Western vehicles can be combined in the same force. Non-crewables however can only be controlled via the map-commands, or by outsideview without the option to jump to the stations - you can manually remote-drive them, but for the most all aiming and shooting is done automatically. Once the players leaves them alone again, AI takes over full control again.


MBTs:
=====
Leopard 1A5DK
Leopard-AS1
Leopard-2A4
Leopard-2A5DK*
Leopardo-2E* (a Leo-2A6 for Spain)
Strv-122* (Leo-2A5 for Sweden)
M-60A3
M1 with 105mm L7 gun(*)
M1A1 (HA)(*)
M1A2 SEP
Challenger II
T-55
T-62
T-72M1
T-72B
T-72M4CZ
T-80U


IFVs/APCs
=======
ASLAV-25
ASLAV-PC (Lemur)
BMD-2
BMP-1
BMP-2
BTR-80
Bushmaster(*) (Lemur)
CV90/35DK*
CV90/40-B*
CV90/40-C*
LAV-25
M-113AS4
M-113G3 (Lemur)
M2A2(*)
M3A2(*)
Marder 1A3
MT-LB
Pizarro*
Piranha-IIIC* (Lemur)
VEC
YPR-765


trucks
======
HEMTT transport
HEMTT fuel
M-1025 HMMWV
MAN SX45 transport (Lemur)
MAN SX45 fuel (Lemur)
MB-240 GD
MB-240 GD XO/CO
Ural 4320 transport (now with dismountable troops)
Ural 4320 fuel


others
=====
ASLAV-CS
ASLAV-A
Biber
BRDM-2
BRDM-2AT
Centauro*
Eagle IV (Lemur)
M-981 FISTV
FOV90* (CV-90 FO)
Jaguar 1A3
M-113/FO
M-113 FO "Viking"
M-113A1
M-113FIST
M-113A3 Engineers
M-113A3 MICLIC
M-113 Medic
M-113G3 OPMV
M-113 Bergepanzer
M-113A3 TOW
M-88A1 MRV
M-901 ITV
M-966 HMMWV
MT-55
MT-LB FO
2S6 Tunguska AA
UAV unmanned aerial vehicle
UGV unmanned ground vehicle
1.2t technical truck HMG
1.2t technical truck RCL
YPR-765 PRAT
Wiesel TOW
4 versions of civilian cars

Some of these tanks and IFVs are modelled quite completely in the handling of the fire control procedures. Some have complex manuals just for the one vehicle. The realism of ballistics, the realism of the sights and sensors, and the range of available projectiles per gun model and operator, are very huge.

Not a survey sim...? I tend to think of SBPPE as the Falcon 4 of tank sims.

Third, on the extreme devotion, you know that eSim is no gaming company, and that the sales to private customers make much less than 10% of their income (their own info), and that the sim is in the state it is in because their real paying customers - the military - ordered it that way and demanded it to have these and no other contents? Extreme devotion for the M1 and Leo has little to do with it. It's just that their important customers wanted these. And they modelled them - as competently as they try to model all other vehicles as well. You can see that there are polenty of vehciles with full interiors and fulöl playability so that you can set up full battle without any Leopards and Abrams involved.



I do not want to missionise or convert you, but somehow I think that maybe you just do not know SBP-PE well enough.