U.S. Navy to Probe Lewd Videos Shown to Carrier Crew

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

In how far are the videos shot onboard the Enterprise "moral boosting" films, TLAM?

Sexism against female crew members, and offending people for their sexuality and exposing them to public mockery, is no moral-boosting - it undermines moral integrity.

So explain why a majority of the crew of Enterprise has started a petition practically begging for his reinstatement. In this case your opinion of "morale-boosting" seems to be far off the mark.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Your arguement there is pretty bad, sure, i have never been to sea, nor have i been kept 'sane' by acting like a goose. You have missed the real point of all of this, that is that a person of high standing and in command of men and power has to face the consequences of his actions. Not because it's what 'boys' do to relieve some pressures of the job, and to keep them sane. I agree, entertainment should be high on the priority of crew serving anywhere, be it at sea or on land, or indeed under it. However, there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, not by front line soldiers, and certainly not by commanding officers. Even worse.

If you have never been to sea then you have ZERO frame of reference, It would be like explaining color to a blind man. My fellow sailors know what I am talking about.

I would have NO problem with someone telling to me to 'blow them' and making obscene gestures while I was underway. Does it make me or them gay? no.. it breaks up the dreary days. It puts some color and humor into what would be 'yet another day'. They would have no problem with me saying the same to them.

I have looked my old XO in the eyes and asked him 'What are you doing here you wop.' Yes, he was a big italian man and PROUD of his heritage. I once asked him to go see the doc about his case of rectumitis. Was I being disrespectful? Technically yes, but at the same time it was done in a situation where he understoood the humor and laughed about it. I respected than man then and I still do now. He also knew, and I mean KNEW, that I would do anything if told to without question.

The WOMEN I worked with were rauncher than the guys. They considered themselves one of the guys (and accepted as an equal) when you could make an off color sexual joke around them without worrying about the consequenses.

Yea a medal for being pretty ignorant and a bad selection of the entertainment content, and even worse, filming it.

They have been recording these things since BEFORE nuclear power. Go into the archives and you could say the same things about EVERY officer EVER commissioned. I guarentee it. Go ahead, pick your branch of service. Pick your country. This happens EVERY DAY somewhere. It happened yesterday and it will happen tommorrow.

Oh but we do let the forces do their jobs. I don't understand your last part though, you have mentioned that twice now, about the killing of people if they threaten our/your/anyone's country. What does that have to do with all of this?

What does this have to do with anything? Umm.. ulitmately it is his JOB. His job is to command people in the systematic efficient dealing of death. He is not a movie producer. He is not a elected offical. He is there to kill other people on command. Everything else is a collateral duty that supports his primary function. So he has a poor sense of humor and is a lousy writer. Are these reasons to remove him from command? They have NOTHING to do with his primary job.

So, if the CO's command is ready to carry out its duty then the man has DONE HIS JOB. Everything else is paperwork.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

I didn't see anything directed at any one person in particular in the three videos I watched.

Most of the jokes were either crude slapstick, jokes at Cdr Honors' own expense (dancing with the ship's mascot parrot, liaisons with a goat in his cabin), sexual innuendo, or Cdr Honors' alter egos (a Aviator and a SWO) insulting each other.

...Nothing worse than what we say about Jim...

Again, does anyone see the connection between the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell?

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

So explain why a majority of the crew of Enterprise has started a petition practically begging for his reinstatement. In this case your opinion of "morale-boosting" seems to be far off the mark.

I'd have to say I agree whole-heartedly.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

So explain why a majority of the crew of Enterprise has started a petition practically begging for his reinstatement. In this case your opinion of "morale-boosting" seems to be far off the mark.

Group confomrity, which traditionally is extremely strong in the military. And he would not have made these "jokes" if he wouldn'T have gained some laughter. But that does not contradict my assessment that he made these jokes at the cost of parts of the crew, which before also have had a "petition" thing: they complained.

It might be interesting to see who is NOT signing in to that petition they have now.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Again, does anyone see the connection between the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell?

´

Maybe yes.

[Gerald]

It was a bad year for commanding officers in 2010. The Navy Times reported that 17 COs were fired last year for conduct unbecoming of an officer -- the second highest number of firings in a decade.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...plicit-videos/

So explain why a majority of the crew of Enterprise has started a petition practically begging for his reinstatement. In this case your opinion of "morale-boosting" seems to be far off the mark.

One thing there Steve, no it isn't about the importance of catering for the minorities and not simply caving in to a majority. Its about the morale boosting and the nature of the crew. The crew is a team which has to work together and like a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, it could be said that though the aim was to strengthen the chain the XO was actively seeking to weaken several parts of the chain.

Though the most damning thing in this is that he continued in the same vein after complaining that people were complaining through channels about him, which suggests he was unable to appraise the situation for himself and his crew which is a failure of leadership.

The WOMEN I worked with were rauncher than the guys. They considered themselves one of the guys (and accepted as an equal) when you could make an off color sexual joke around them without worrying about the consequenses.

Ah of course Tailhook....conduct unbecoming of an officer and failure of leadership

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke

If you have never been to sea then you have ZERO frame of reference, It would be like explaining color to a blind man. My fellow sailors know what I am talking about.

I would have NO problem with someone telling to me to 'blow them' and making obscene gestures while I was underway. Does it make me or them gay? no.. it breaks up the dreary days. It puts some color and humor into what would be 'yet another day'. They would have no problem with me saying the same to them.

I have looked my old XO in the eyes and asked him 'What are you doing here you wop.' Yes, he was a big italian man and PROUD of his heritage. I once asked him to go see the doc about his case of rectumitis. Was I being disrespectful? Technically yes, but at the same time it was done in a situation where he understoood the humor and laughed about it. I respected than man then and I still do now. He also knew, and I mean KNEW, that I would do anything if told to without question.

The WOMEN I worked with were rauncher than the guys. They considered themselves one of the guys (and accepted as an equal) when you could make an off color sexual joke around them without worrying about the consequenses.



They have been recording these things since BEFORE nuclear power. Go into the archives and you could say the same things about EVERY officer EVER commissioned. I guarentee it. Go ahead, pick your branch of service. Pick your country. This happens EVERY DAY somewhere. It happened yesterday and it will happen tommorrow.



What does this have to do with anything? Umm.. ulitmately it is his JOB. His job is to command people in the systematic efficient dealing of death. He is not a movie producer. He is not a elected offical. He is there to kill other people on command. Everything else is a collateral duty that supports his primary function. So he has a poor sense of humor and is a lousy writer. Are these reasons to remove him from command? They have NOTHING to do with his primary job.

So, if the CO's command is ready to carry out its duty then the man has DONE HIS JOB. Everything else is paperwork.

I understand what you're saying, but I haven't been to sea so forgive my uninformed opinion.

I think any time you get a group of guys together, they're going to rib each other using all kinds of offensive crap and slurs. We do it at work all the time. I don't think anyone would begrudge anyone doing that sort of thing with your buddies. But do you think it's a good idea to commit that stuff to film and distribute it across the ship to people you know and people you don't know? There's stuff I'd say to some of the guys at work that I wouldn't dream of saying to other guys I work with. By broadcasting the film shipwide, you're essentially saying this stuff to everyone.

And an officer committing it to film gives it a sort of institutionalized stamp of approval which doesn't really happen if he's doing it in a one-on-one situation with guys he knows.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I understand what you're saying, but I haven't been to sea so forgive my uninformed opinion.

I think any time you get a group of guys together, they're going to rib each other using all kinds of offensive crap and slurs. We do it at work all the time. I don't think anyone would begrudge anyone doing that sort of thing with your buddies. But do you think it's a good idea to commit that stuff to film and distribute it across the ship to people you know and people you don't know? There's stuff I'd say to some of the guys at work that I wouldn't dream of saying to other guys I work with. By broadcasting the film shipwide, you're essentially saying this stuff to everyone.

And an officer committing it to film gives it a sort of institutionalized stamp of approval which doesn't really happen if he's doing it in a one-on-one situation with guys he knows.

^this

The way to talk in private talk with your buddies, is one thing. But loose talking being used in that context, better is not used facing strangers, or anonymous groups of people, it easily becomes offensive, at least unpolite. Like for forums like this one: you better do not write the way you talk to close friends, this is also true when writing letters - if you write as loose and harsworded as you may use your tongue when being with your friends, you easily give the impression to be a stupid prolet showing off that way. If you risk your career over doing so, then your situation assessment works highly erratic. And if you even record it on video and distribute it to 5-6 thousand people, and record the evidence on tape or TV, and ignore complaints and warnings, then you really have lost your marbles, completely.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

One thing there Steve, no it isn't about the importance of catering for the minorities and not simply caving in to a majority. Its about the morale boosting and the nature of the crew. The crew is a team which has to work together and like a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, it could be said that though the aim was to strengthen the chain the XO was actively seeking to weaken several parts of the chain.

A good point, though I don't see it quite that way. I don't think he was seeking to weaken anybody.

Though the most damning thing in this is that he continued in the same vein after complaining that people were complaining through channels about him, which suggests he was unable to appraise the situation for himself and his crew which is a failure of leadership.

And that's where you probably have me. In a world where being rammed by another ship at 0200 hours while you're asleep in your rack is grounds for dismissal, the Navy is probably taking the appropriate action in this case, even if I don't believe it's the right one.

[Lord Justice]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And that's where you probably have me.

I would have you in the brig, bound in irons, and perhaps flogged. Good to see that you are still about sir!

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Skybird

^this

The way to talk in private talk with your buddies, is one thing. But loose talking being used in that context, better is not used facing strangers, or anonymous groups of people, it easily becomes offensive, at least unpolite. Like for forums like this one: you better do not write the way you talk to close friends, this is also true when writing letters - if you write as loose and harsworded as you may use your tongue when being with your friends, you easily give the impression to be a stupid prolet showing off that way. If you risk your career over doing so, then your situation assessment works highly erratic. And if you even record it on video and distribute it to 5-6 thousand people, and record the evidence on tape or TV, and ignore complaints and warnings, then you really have lost your marbles, completely.

Spot on. When you're a public figure, or a figure of authority you have to be politically savvy. It comes with the territory wether you like it or not. And its more important the higher up you go.

As to the whole concept of "traditions", well traditions change as society changes. 100 years ago the US Navy didn't have black officers. It was a tradition to not having women serve aboard. It was tradition to not having women being fighter pilots. It was tradition to not have women serve aboard submarines etc... Many things are traditions. But traditions are not immutable. You have to be intelligent enough to understand the social climate around you, and what would have been acceptable 20 years ago may not be acceptable now.

So yes Captain Honors demonstrated an "epic fail". What he did was plain stupid. Passable for a junior officer (maybe), completely out of the line for a commading officer. Thats the way it is, and he is paying a political price for his behaviour. He is not the first and certainly won't be the last.

[MaddogK]

He WAS a a junior officer 4 years ago when the videos were made AND they weren't a big issue back then because he WAS promoted to Captain. The issue today is WHY is it an issue NOW ?? Why is he being tried by the court of public opinion instead kept 'in house' ?

Yes, this screams of a DADT witch hunt.
The admirality is sacrificing this officer to cover their asses for promoting him.

Epic Fail for the Navy.

The Navy is quickly becoming a girl scout troup, NOT the brotherhood that I was once proud to be a member of.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by MaddogK

The Navy is quickly becoming a girl scout troup, NOT the brotherhood that I was once proud to be a member of.

I don't know; judging from the photos you posted, it looks like the Navy has a proud tradition of dressing and acting like a girl scout troop.