Ideal range for sonar only attack on a lone merchant

Originally Posted by commandosolo2009

wow!! 47 views, and no replies?

I guess its iatrogenic then..

Well considering that there is not a single reliable account of a successful sonar only attack in the entire Pacific war, why are you surprised that yours failed?

Solving the target motion analysis problem with whiz-wheels and manual plots alone can never be effective although repeated often enough it might yield a success or two.

Only in the artificial world of SubSim is the technique alive, in the event the USN held the sonar only approach as doctrine until just after actual war started and then dumped it almost immediately as it did not work.

What you're experiancing is just the game imitating real-life.

[commandosolo2009]

Well, for two things, the waters were calm, and second, I wasnt detected. But it would have been cool if the technique was implemented in the war. Subs wouldnt have had to worry about being spotted at all... Well, at least with electric eels.. Which had flaws... I guess nothing is perfect. However, and surprisingly, I did a reboot today, but this time, raced to the intercept point. The target became clearer, and I delivered 3 out of 4 eels, into after the command deck, stack, and aft deck, the missed eel just passed too close to the rudder.... I sunk the bastard..


Got a bronze for the fourth patrol... Not fancy though... I like the medal system.... Hopefully by the end of it, I get the purple heart or the medal of honor

[Fish40]

I tried a sonar attack only once, and by chance it was a success. I came across a 3 merchant convoy in horrible weather. Visibility was about 700yds. I knew there would'nt be enough time to properly ID the target, and get a range useing the Stadimeter, so I decided to use a DO style attack. Since I had radar, getting course and speed were easy useing the 3min rule. After outflanking the ships, I headed 90 degrees to their course, dove to PD, and slowly closed the range, always tracking on sonar. I could hear they were pretty close, but could not see them. The beauty of the DO method is that range is not really a factor. I couldn't ping for a range, because there was an escort in the area. When the target sound was loudest on the appropriate bearing, I fired the fish and crossed my fingers. Not long after came the sounds of impact! It was a very impressive kill if I do say so myself!

[commandosolo2009]

Thats another good thing about SO. You can literally shoot with zero visibility, still hightening your chances of actually getting a kill. I got my fattest merchant on this patrol, by the help of periscope actually. The one modification that helped accuracy, was that I raced at flank underwater, and still the PK was off, so once I became close to about 3000 meters, I raised scope, corrected range and sealed the SO. It was by visibility this time though.. But certainly, when I get the electric eels, I'll even engage topside without DEs being able to find me. A radar also improves ranging, since the mast, gives a near center lock on the target, as its the hoist thru which radar emits... to mid-end 1942...

[Rockin Robbins]

I did a really successful sonar only attack once. Hit five of six torpedoes.......on the USS Essex.

It was not my finest hour.

WernerSobe's sonar only technique in the Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks thread works masterfully, as it would have in real life. I have a sonar only Dick O'Kane technique in that thread also, which is a bit more relaxed in execution but maybe a bit more deadly.

All the sonar only techniques work better in the game than they would in real life because we know that the return sound from the target is an exact (I think it's four degrees) number of degrees wide, where in real life that would vary with conditions. That would result in a bit more bearing error than we have. It still would have worked in real life.

The problem was that early skippers learned that the dangers of exposing a periscope were vastly overrated if your were reasonably cautious. And there is no doubt that you feel more secure and target much more accurately if you use the periscope. That left them with no reason to use sonar targeting.

[razark]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I did a really successful sonar only attack once. Hit five of six torpedoes.......on the USS Essex.

I'd prefer sitting in Lockwood's office, explaining why my patrol wasn't so great; rather than sitting in Nimitz's office, explaining why CV-6 hasn't answered the phone since entering my patrol area.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

The problem was that early skippers learned that the dangers of exposing a periscope were vastly overrated if your were reasonably cautious. And there is no doubt that you feel more secure and target much more accurately if you use the periscope. That left them with no reason to use sonar targeting.

I recall reading that the early skippers tried sonar only attacks at the beginning of the war. It's what they practiced before the war. Having an exposed periscope spotted during a training exercise was likely to result in a bad career path for the skipper.

They quickly learned that the sonar only method wasn't working, and moved to other methods that did.

[commandosolo2009]

I did a really successful sonar only attack once. Hit five of six torpedoes.......on the USS Essex.

That really cracked me up


[QUOTE]WernerSobe's sonar only technique in the Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks thread works masterfully, as it would have in real life.

I have a sonar only Dick O'Kane technique in that thread also, which is a bit more relaxed in execution but maybe a bit more deadly.

So there is two of them? Off to thread then

All the sonar only techniques work better in the game than they would in real life because we know that the return sound from the target is an exact (I think it's four degrees) number of degrees wide, where in real life that would vary with conditions. That would result in a bit more bearing error than we have. It still would have worked in real life.

Well, RR, the game actually depicts the discrepancy, in the form of "loudest screw sound".. Of course you have to have a real good headset to hear the loudest of screws, then ping in that bearing. Yet the risk of sonar exposure is far more worse. I could use it in daylight, but at night? No, it's definitely AP.

Originally Posted by razark

I'd prefer sitting in Lockwood's office, explaining why my patrol wasn't so great; rather than sitting in Nimitz's office, explaining why CV-6 hasn't answered the phone since entering my patrol area.


I recall reading that the early skippers tried sonar only attacks at the beginning of the war. It's what they practiced before the war. Having an exposed periscope spotted during a training exercise was likely to result in a bad career path for the skipper.

They quickly learned that the sonar only method wasn't working, and moved to other methods that did.

So, should I refrain from using the sonar? I mean c'mon!!! Ze Germans are HERE!!!

[General Tso]

Originally Posted by razark

I recall reading that the early skippers tried sonar only attacks at the beginning of the war. It's what they practiced before the war. Having an exposed periscope spotted during a training exercise was likely to result in a bad career path for the skipper.

That agrees 100% with what I read, but it was even worse than that. The training exercises included aircraft. The submarine had to travel down a predetermined corridor and the aircraft new the exact position of that corridor. With training like that it's no wonder the captains that started the war where overly cautious.