Neutrals are supposed to be NEUTRAL

Gargamel · 12-20-10, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K-61

Yes, that's it. I edit mine to read "1." My rationale is that neutrals carrying cargo to Britain are a legitimate target, because they are in a British guarded convoy. I do not use this hack to sink just any neutral simply for the purpose of running up tonnage scores.

Valid argument there, as the ROE stated that. But they're still neutral, so would possibly making it like .5 or .25 work? I just ask cause I'd be worried about not using whole numbers.

Sailor Steve · 12-20-10, 06:37 PM

I use 0, for the simple reason that it discourages me from even thinking about it. I also reduced friendlies to -1, because the few times it did happen the kaleun was always exonerated.

Tinman764 · 12-20-10, 06:48 PM

What does the WrongShipSunk=-5000 line do?

Reason I ask is, having started a new career with the 7th using GWX, you are ordered to sink the ships in the bay and await further orders.
The ships are British and the date is proir to Britain joining the war. I've done this mission twice and both times I was fired on and sunk by friendlies on returning to port.

Tessa · 12-20-10, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinman764

What does the WrongShipSunk=-5000 line do?

Reason I ask is, having started a new career with the 7th using GWX, you are ordered to sink the ships in the bay and await further orders.
The ships are British and the date is proir to Britain joining the war. I've done this mission twice and both times I was fired on and sunk by friendlies on returning to port.

That's the renown you loose if you sink a hospital ship.

12-20-10, 06:56 PM

There is no right way to play. Obviously it's a personal issue how one wishes to treat neutrals but to advocate for the status quo, that is a renown loss for sinking non-belligerents, consider this:

Even towards the end of the war the Reich Foriegn Office was trying very hard to keep additions from the list of Germany's enemies. Sinking neutral shipping was no help in this at all and indeed, attacks on neutrals frequently resulted in the victim's country taking some sort of diplomatic action against Germany over the long run or in a manner not to Germany's advantage. Spain's Franco certainly exploited the loss of Spanish ships to U-Boats to the Nazi's detriment as did Portugal, Brazil and before December 10 1941, the biggest neutral of them all, the USA.

So if the flotilla commander or even BdU signed off on sinking a neutral ship, it is unlikely you would be making many friends in high places.

In the late war one seldom has the luxury to actually identify the nationality of the target. If I get home and learn that I sank a Swede or Mexican, I have no issue with taking the renown hit imposed by GWX3.

Tessa · 12-20-10, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomizer

There is no right way to play. Obviously it's a personal issue how one wishes to treat neutrals but to advocate for the status quo, that is a renown loss for sinking non-belligerents, consider this:

Even towards the end of the war the Reich Foriegn Office was trying very hard to keep additions from the list of Germany's enemies. Sinking neutral shipping was no help in this at all and indeed, attacks on neutrals frequently resulted in the victim's country taking some sort of diplomatic action against Germany over the long run or in a manner not to Germany's advantage. Spain's Franco certainly exploited the loss of Spanish ships to U-Boats to the Nazi's detriment as did Portugal, Brazil and before December 10 1941, the biggest neutral of them all, the USA.

So if the flotilla commander or even BdU signed off on sinking a neutral ship, it is unlikely you would be making many friends in high places.

In the late war one seldom has the luxury to actually identify the nationality of the target. If I get home and learn that I sank a Swede or Mexican, I have no issue with taking the renown hit imposed by GWX3.

Sinking US ships was the most heinous thing one could even think prior to their entry to the war. Germany tried their best to keep them out of the war, or at least prolong their entry as they knew (as Yamamato said) that attacking them would wake the sleeping beast. What really become a hot potatoe was when the US occupied Iceland and put a fleet there, and several times had used their warships as escorts in situations were they were unquestionably acting as allied belligerents. It infuriated skippers that they couldn't sink these ships that were clearly breaking the rules of neutrality in order to keep the US out of the war at the time.

As you mention, sinking neutrals didn't make you any friends; though I don't think any single captain ever sank more than 1 neutral ship in their career? During the campaign off the East Coast of the US/Carribean was when the largest number of neutrals were sunk. Once the US had entered the war the entire continent became fair game, unfortunately a lot of neutrals got caught in the process.

Mexico switched to the allies side after an accidental sinking of one of their tankers off the East Coast, Brazil wasn't very happy as they had a fair number sunk off the East Coast as well. Save the times when the US were acting on the side of the allies (while still claiming to be neutral) was the main time when sinking of (what then were) neutral US ships would have been perfectly within the rules of engagement. Since Germany wanted to keep the US out of the war captains did make a concerted effort to avoid US ships.

kroll688 · 12-24-10, 08:46 PM

I attacked an "enemy convoy" yesterday. Playing GWX in November 1939. In the middle column I sank one ship that was Danish, did not even look for flags as it was an escorted convoy. I believe you still get credit for the tonnage, just a renown minus. I was a bit perplexed at first, but just chalked it up to how the politics of the time are reflected in game play.

Missing Name · 12-24-10, 09:38 PM

It's funny, most times I see hospital ships they're already run aground or smoking. I just don't get why.

Gargamel · 12-25-10, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing Name

It's funny, most times I see hospital ships they're already run aground or smoking. I just don't get why.

They of all ships should know that smoking is bad for you.

(Sorry, just the visual I had after all the Xmas eve cocktails I've consumed)

kapuhy · 12-25-10, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessa

As you mention, sinking neutrals didn't make you any friends; though I don't think any single captain ever sank more than 1 neutral ship in their career?

Meet Captain Harald Grosse, last commander of U-53:

http://www.uboat.net/men/commanders/388.html

He managed to sink 5 ships - all of them neutral. And he wasn't even that special - even famous aces like Schepke or Kretschmer are credited with several neutral ships.

I was surprised to see how many Swedish ship were sunk - these poor guys have been neutral all the time and yet they've lost more ships to the U-Boats then Canada or France.

Axeman3d · 12-25-10, 04:19 PM

There is an old saying, "Fly with the crows, get shot with the crows". I recently attacked a well defended convoy from Gibraltar in early 1941 and although I fired at a couple of large British merchants the only thing that got sunk was some neutral small merchant. If you're in the middle of a British convoy sailing from a British colony to Britain under a British escort, I'd say you just gave up the whole 'neutral' defence.

12-20-10, 06:37 PM	#2
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	I use 0, for the simple reason that it discourages me from even thinking about it. I also reduced friendlies to -1, because the few times it did happen the kaleun was always exonerated. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

12-24-10, 09:38 PM	#8
Missing Name Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Westun New Yahk Posts: 748 Downloads: 131 Uploads: 0	It's funny, most times I see hospital ships they're already run aground or smoking. I just don't get why. __________________ Largest target sunk with deck gun: Japanese auxiliary cruiser, 15000 tons Largest engaged: HMS Nelson. Results inconclusive. Read Brag's stuff

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12-20-10, 06:48 PM	#3
Tinman764 Chief Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: U-32's Wintergarten Posts: 325 Downloads: 182 Uploads: 0	What does the WrongShipSunk=-5000 line do? Reason I ask is, having started a new career with the 7th using GWX, you are ordered to sink the ships in the bay and await further orders. The ships are British and the date is proir to Britain joining the war. I've done this mission twice and both times I was fired on and sunk by friendlies on returning to port.

12-20-10, 06:56 PM	#5
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	There is no right way to play. Obviously it's a personal issue how one wishes to treat neutrals but to advocate for the status quo, that is a renown loss for sinking non-belligerents, consider this: Even towards the end of the war the Reich Foriegn Office was trying very hard to keep additions from the list of Germany's enemies. Sinking neutral shipping was no help in this at all and indeed, attacks on neutrals frequently resulted in the victim's country taking some sort of diplomatic action against Germany over the long run or in a manner not to Germany's advantage. Spain's Franco certainly exploited the loss of Spanish ships to U-Boats to the Nazi's detriment as did Portugal, Brazil and before December 10 1941, the biggest neutral of them all, the USA. So if the flotilla commander or even BdU signed off on sinking a neutral ship, it is unlikely you would be making many friends in high places. In the late war one seldom has the luxury to actually identify the nationality of the target. If I get home and learn that I sank a Swede or Mexican, I have no issue with taking the renown hit imposed by GWX3.

12-24-10, 08:46 PM	#7
kroll688 Watch Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: North Pacific Ocean Posts: 22 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I attacked an "enemy convoy" yesterday. Playing GWX in November 1939. In the middle column I sank one ship that was Danish, did not even look for flags as it was an escorted convoy. I believe you still get credit for the tonnage, just a renown minus. I was a bit perplexed at first, but just chalked it up to how the politics of the time are reflected in game play.

12-25-10, 04:19 PM	#11
Axeman3d Machinist's Mate Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Central Scotland Posts: 127 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	There is an old saying, "Fly with the crows, get shot with the crows". I recently attacked a well defended convoy from Gibraltar in early 1941 and although I fired at a couple of large British merchants the only thing that got sunk was some neutral small merchant. If you're in the middle of a British convoy sailing from a British colony to Britain under a British escort, I'd say you just gave up the whole 'neutral' defence.