History is written by the victor

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Penguin

outside! A quick amazon.com search has shown me that some of the good books have indeed been translated into american

Ah, yes, the American language...maybe I will bother to learn it one day.

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Ah, yes, the American language...maybe I will bother to learn it one day.

You might be better off to learn Spanish.


As a side?
Check out info on
'The Battle of Los Angeles'
UFO nuts claim it was a UFO.
Others claim all kinds of stuff.
Draw your own theory, but it is interesting given the time period.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by privateer

Check out info on
'The Battle of Los Angeles'
...

We prefer to minimize the military aspect of it so we tend to call it "The 1992 LA Riots".

[tater]

Cross of Iron?

Movies about the Germans follow a pattern (Stalingrad, das Boot, etc). Spend a while at the beginning showing us that the protagonists are not nazis, and don't like them. Have some "political officers" around that they can make fun of here and there too. Continue with a movie where the audience can like the protagonists.

Since the formula doesn't work on me, I watch those movies without any sympathy for the main characters

Letters from Iwo did the same thing, making it clear that the enlisted protagonist was taken against his will, as was the guy in the Kempeitai (show him as good guy, so we are not happy when he gets bumped off).

[kranz]

Originally Posted by tater

Cross of Iron?

Movies about the Germans follow a pattern (...)

Since the formula doesn't work on me, I watch those movies without any sympathy for the main characters

I'm wondering what would you say about Saving Private Ryan.

[MH]

History written by victors?
While this may apply to Hollywood movies which are mostly worthless its not true for general research of ww2.
If you are interested in history read books but not just novels.
You still may have to draw your own conclusions on a lot of issues.

[tater]

Originally Posted by kranz

I'm wondering what would you say about Saving Private Ryan.

?

US made movies—recent ones—usually tend to show a dark side to the US forces. Summary execution, etc. I think it's laudable that we own up to that. That said, many of the US movies are far too lose with history for my taste. That they paint a heroic picture doesn't bother me, frankly, I have always made a point to seek out and talk to ww2 vets, and in my opinion they are a pretty heroic lot (though not one of them would ever say more than ('the real heros are still over there (whichever theater "there" was)—dead.")

The modern german formula makes sense to win viewers. Are there any german ww2 movies where a likable protagonist is a nazi, or even just not "anti" nazi in words (if not deeds, since merely continuing to fight is a "pro-nazi regime" deed). I suppose the obvious choice for a movie outside the "formula" is Downfall. The protagonist is the secretary, right? I suppose they get around the formula a little via sexism, a girl is allowed to be a credulous supporter through no fault of her own (she's just a girl, after all, she believed what she saw on the newsreels, contrary to everything going on around her).

I'm definitely gonna watch a few listed here I have no yet seen, that's for sure.

[kranz]

what confused me in your post was the fact that you simply divided the protagonists onto nazis/non-nazis. (I guess that the division also goes like soldiers/officers in Stalingrad and the crew/I WO in Das Boot). Personally I wouldn't mind if Fritz and Rollo were nazis and still tried to rescue Muller. What I mean is that the whole pattern, which those films try to follow, is wrong. There is a good movie, Sophie Scholl-the final days and the character of Robert Mohr who is a gestapo interrogator. He would be someone going outside this pattern, at least for me. I asked you about private ryan bcoz there is this attack on the machine gun nest. So Tom Hanks was good because he attacked and endangered his squad or was he good coz he opposed the rest and didn't want to kill the german soldier? For me the borderline doesn't go nazis/non-nazis bcoz after all in Stalingrad they had to join the firing squad and kill that cobbler boy. Coming back to Downfall- but she wasn't a nazi neither. So for me she is still inside the pattern you mentioned. As I said before the film is based on Joachim Fest's book. As far as I know the book was based on several testimonies but mostly on Traudl Junge's- the secretary and Ernst-Gunter Schenck, the bold doctor who refuses to evacuate. However the film is shown as a reminiscence of the secretary only. If you are familiar with other writers dealing with Hitler's last days/hours you know that she was simply "fantasizing" in many aspects. Ok, I know it's only a movie but its construction, especially the beginning and ending suggest that what you deal with is not only a movie but a real story. I bet one would have a different opinion if the story was told by Schenck.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

We prefer to minimize the military aspect of it so we tend to call it "The 1992 LA Riots".

Before I looked it up, I honestly thought this term would refer to the riots.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Ah, yes, the American language...maybe I will bother to learn it one day.

The Americans say that I speak with a British dialect (and a sweet german accent) - the British claim that I babble with an american dialect.

I guess this makes me talking the English which the folks in BD77 speak.