Julian Assange arrested (merged)

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I know that this has been said by people before in this thread, and I know that we are going around in circles here, but it seems pretty clear-cut to me that there are two wrongs here. The US government is clearly decieving the American people, and at the same time Assange's acts amount to international espionage, albeit without the sanction of a sovereign government. This is where the clear-cut ends with me, as I am conflicted over which I am more outraged: The theft and dissemination of sensitive information, or the blatent deception by the US government contained within the documents.

It's not just the US government that's being exposed by this. I know you guys feel targeted, but these leaks actually expose many governments of illegal activities and lies (including mine).

Also, as has been stated many times by various lawyers, it is certainly not clear whether Assange's actions amount to espionage. The only people saying they do are politicians, not lawyers.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

It's not just the US government that's being exposed by this. I know you guys feel targeted, but these leaks actually expose many governments of illegal activities and lies (including mine).

Also, as has been stated many times by various lawyers, it is certainly not clear whether Assange's actions amount to espionage. The only people saying they do are politicians, not lawyers.

You're right; it does include a number of other governments. As an American, I was speaking a bit too Amero-Centrically, for lack of a better term.

Regarding espionage, it is defined as the practice of spying or using spies to obtain information about the plans and activities especially of a foreign government or a competing company according to Merriam-Webster.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/espionage

With that definition, I think it is a textbook case of espionage, but you are right that this may or may not be the case under the law.

[Oberon]

Indeed so, but then again, so is Sir John Sawers, Leon Panetta, Meir Dagan, Alexsandr Bortnikov, Geng Huichang, and every other head of national intelligence agencies. The primary difference is, they don't tell the population of the countries they're working for what they find.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

You're right; it does include a number of other governments. As an American, I was speaking a bit too Amero-Centrically, for lack of a better term.

Regarding espionage, it is defined as the practice of spying or using spies to obtain information about the plans and activities especially of a foreign government or a competing company according to Merriam-Webster.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/espionage

With that definition, I think it is a textbook case of espionage, but you are right that this may or may not be the case under the law.

It is not a textbook case of espionnage. First of all Assange personally didn't spy on the american government. He was not the one downloading the secret cables from sirpnet and burning them on his personal cds.
Secondly, it was Manning that spied (or stole pick the term that best suits the situation) on the government and then giving the cables to wikileak. He did that out of sense of justice as he himself said (He could just as easily have given them to the Washington Post or the New York Times or the LA Times etc...). He was not employed, or payed by wikileaks to provide that information so how can you possibily come to the conclusion that Assange has spied on the US government is simply mind boggling.

If you think so, then according to your definition it doesn't matter the organization, Wikileaks, Medecins sans Frontiere, Greenpeace, Newspapers, etc... anytime they are given "secrets" to publicly display they are in effect spying on the government. You are making them responsabile for a third party deeds.
Believe it or not its a very slippery slope that will bring you closer to a fascist state.
You're getting there more rapidly that you can imagine. Just take a look at the TSA.

Americans are like little kids, as Skybird justly wrote. Your idealism trumps everything. Your country has never had to deal with poltical diversity (and no democrats and republicans are more or less the same). Political diversity means having a comunist party, it means having a green party, it means having a whole range of political expression and that spectrum being represented at the government level. You simply don't have this plurality in the US, and you are the poorer for it. As a country you need to grow up, and shed a little bit of that idealism that is being used continously against you (the civil society) right now by your government. If you don't do something your praised constitution will be nothing but mere words on a sheet of paper. Ignored by everyone that counts.

Wikileaks has not been condemed, and according to the Rule of Law only the courts can determine wether Wikileaks has done something illegal. Seeing as Corporations such as Visa/Mastercard, Amazon, Paypal are taking arbitrarily the law in their own hands (under pressure from the executive branch of the US government) just shows that the US doens't want a critical free thinking press. You're right there with the kinds of Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Iran, Syria and a host of other nations.

Think about it, the next time you want to organise a meeting to defend the rights of journalists in oppressed regimes.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by goldorak

It is not a textbook case of espionnage. First of all Assange personally didn't spy on the american government. He was not the one downloading the secret cables from sirpnet and burning them on his personal cds.
Secondly, it was Manning that spied (or stole pick the term that best suits the situation) on the government and then giving the cables to wikileak. He did that out of sense of justice as he himself said (He could just as easily have given them to the Washington Post or the New York Times or the LA Times etc...). He was not employed, or payed by wikileaks to provide that information so how can you possibily come to the conclusion that Assange has spied on the US government is simply mind boggling.

If you think so, then according to your definition it doesn't matter the organization, Wikileaks, Medecins sans Frontiere, Greenpeace, Newspapers, etc... anytime they are given "secrets" to publicly display they are in effect spying on the government. You are making them responsabile for a third party deeds.
Believe it or not its a very slippery slope that will bring you closer to a fascist state.
You're getting there more rapidly that you can imagine. Just take a look at the TSA.

Americans are like little kids, as Skybird justly wrote. Your idealism trumps everything. Your country has never had to deal with poltical diversity (and no democrats and republicans are more or less the same). Political diversity means having a comunist party, it means having a green party, it means having a whole range of political expression and that spectrum being represented at the government level. You simply don't have this plurality in the US, and you are the poorer for it. As a country you need to grow up, and shed a little bit of that idealism that is being used continously against you (the civil society) right now by your government. If you don't do something your praised constitution will be nothing but mere words on a sheet of paper. Ignored by everyone that counts.

Wikileaks has not been condemed, and according to the Rule of Law only the courts can determine wether Wikileaks has done something illegal. Seeing as Corporations such as Visa/Mastercard, Amazon, Paypal are taking arbitrarily the law in their own hands (under pressure from the executive branch of the US government) just shows that the US doens't want a critical free thinking press. You're right there with the kinds of Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Iran, Syria and a host of other nations.

Think about it, the next time you want to organise a meeting to defend the rights of journalists in oppressed regimes.

This little kid asks that you read post No. 140 before donning your boxing gloves, please.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

This little kid asks that you read post No. 140 before donning your boxing gloves, please.

Sorry I didn't read the entire thread before answering to the different critics.
I hope you don't consider "little kid" as an insult. Kids are know to be idealistic, they view the world in terms of black and white. Its a metaphor nothing bad really.
But as I said idealism should not trump everything else, otherwise you can be taken advantage of. For pete's sake, we (as in europeans) got taken advantage of although we certainly were much more critical of our governments than you were.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Sorry I didn't read the entire thread before answering to the different critics.
I hope you don't consider "little kid" as an insult. Kids are know to be idealistic, they view the world in terms of black and white. Its a metaphor nothing bad really.
But as I said idealism should not trump everything else, otherwise you can be taken advantage of. For pete's sake, we (as in europeans) got taken advantage of although we certainly were much more critical of our governments than you were.

No, we're okay. I understand the European perspective. Your governments have been around a whole lot longer than ours. You have been there and back, so to speak. There is a lot that America can learn from Europe, and we shouldn't so carelessly cast aside the advice and knowledge of people that do not wish us harm. A strong Europe is good for America, and a strong America is good for Europe. Decades of 'cowboy politics', mostly on the part of the US, have strained that relationship.

More to the point, I know that America, meaning the American government, has taken an odd stance in this issue. My mind knows that what the US government has been doing is wrong, but my heart wishes it was not so.

[Platapus]

Can Assange be tried for Espionage?

Well, first lets look at the law

Title 18 section 978

Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information—
...

<List of specific types of information>

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

The significant term is "whoever". It is not limited to US citizens only.

Title 18 Section 2

(a) Whoever commits an offense against the United States or aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces or procures its commission, is punishable as a principal. (b) Whoever willfully causes an act to be done which if directly performed by him or another would be an offense against the United States, is punishable as a principal.

Assange would be considered a principal in this case. To be a principal does not require Assange to be a US citizen nor does it require him to have been physically in the US.

He could also be charged under Title 18 Section 794 "Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government"

And Section 793 "Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information"

Now charging and convicting are two separate matters. But he can be charged with these and other crimes. Personally, I think getting a conviction would be difficult... not impossible though.