TMO and dd evasion--my technique fails.

[ZigmundFreund]

Ok, I think we need some more info from our friend Down 'cause this thread is going sideways. It is also a subject I love to debate.

Personaly I managed to learn how to avoid Ducimus' escorts just by reading page 40 to 45 of TMO_20.pdf manual (and a lot of reading in this forum). If you want more explanation about the last paragraph "So what the hell do i do if i have multiple escorts camping out up top?" then Bubblehead1980 is being very useful here.




I found those threads very useful as well. You'll find various opinions, as various as there is attack situations:

1. Ducimus' "The "uber" AI demystified"
2. Help avoiding detection
3. Clear something up about thermal layer

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Recently, I have been setting up at a range of 3,500 - 4,500 yds using the the constant bearing technique (...) escorts, which parallel the main line on each side by approximately 1,000 - 3,000 yds.

About attack technique, I prefer Cromwell's 45 degree AoB approach against speedy task forces because it's ideal to slip between front/flank escorts and it adds-up torps' speed with their speed making the fishes very difficult to avoid.

Anyway, if you can hit a target moving at more than 20 knots from a distance 4,500 yds, you definitely don't need advice on the attack technique. I'm totally unable to do that range with constant bearing.

I agree with Armistead when he said that fixed attack method is dangerous. It is dangerous especially when you are stubborn to stick to only one attack method. Most probably sticking to constant bearing technique IS the reason why you fail and reload your game endlessly.

Are you ending up too close (closer than 2500 yds) to a DD if the main line is at 4500 yds and the flank escort is around 2500 yds in between?
Are you making too much noise trying to catch up or keep your constant bearing? Don't let the escorts get closer than 2500 yds and stop even making noise by breathing when they are that close. Even the repair crew have to be disabled.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Regardless, the protective dd cordon ends with a radar track on my boat, even if it has dived before the unleashed torpedoes impact the chosen target(s). (...)By the way the October 15, 1944 career start missions will lead to large TFs on their way to Luzon.

You said it, you're attacking a TF full of radar equiped capital ship with experienced escorts. Forget about any surface approach. Find their general heading using radar from a safe distance (means more than 8 nm.) and fly in their path at a safe distance (means out of radar range). Dive and pretend you don't exist until they get in range.

If you are not in a good position to attack then Armistead technique to lure the DDs away is a good approach, although I never manage to do this one succesfully against a task force. Making them believe you are somewhere else is a potential approach but you need enough distance to disappear and not too much distance to catch up with the target... More maths on the map.

Let me quote our guru RR on this one: "Once you're detected, the hunt for merchies is over and you're engaged in evasion of escorts. In the meantime, the merchies will get away. So rule #1: don't be detected." Even more true with a task force, you have one pass and you are lucky if you can make a second pass to finish the damaged ships.

Sometimes you have to accept your position is too crappy and let go the attack. Try to figure out where they are going or if they are coming back, ambush them in a strait or next to their destination port or just curse the engineers that gave you so lousy diesels. If you don't want to let it go then find what gets you detected or cowboy your way around the DDs to spray and pray.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

DDs have found my boat at a depth of 600 ft., and sunk it. (...) If I angle my boat towards the oncoming task force to yield a smaller radar profile to the oncoming dds and escorts

If they sank your boat while you were 600 ft. deep it means you were either stopped or going straight with a constant speed? You have to play with them more than that. Once again Bubblehead1980 advices are spot on if you ask me. I would like to add; When a DD ping he's not listening. When he's not pinging he's certainly listening. When he's pinging do not touch time compression!!!

If you want to know more about the AI, search by user for Ducimus in this forum. I believe you know he's the AI scientist here and I got most of my info by searching his posts.

You can avoid any depth charge attack by being deep, evasive and at flank speed. There is no reason run silent if you hear depth charges getting wet. Remember also that the depth is set before launch so changing depth can save your ass as well. I spent a lot of time in the slot during 1942 pissing off the 6 to 12 DD convoys by shelling them and then practice evasion. 'Died a lot of times but it was worth it.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Okay. I have shook off the dds and escrorts by submerging and surfacing between where they spotted me and the TF track. But the TF is moving fast. If I set up for constant bearing or O'Kane, you indicate I will be discovered. I assume you are turning on the PK and using manual targeting while closing on the TF after you have resurfaced at your predesignated position. This mean you have to have the track of the TF, identified the target's, entered speed and course, and determined range. (ie. I assume you are using the Easy Aob mod). How do you find time to do that when the TF can be doing over 20 kts? In one Lyete Gulf battle I calculated the TF speed at 33 kts. Note I set up at approximately 4,500 yds off the TF track and well ahead of it. I dive and resurface uon being spotted at around 2,000 yds. According to your post I should continue to close as I fire torpedoes. Between the time I dive and resurface the TF is really close, and their is insufficient time to use the 3 minute rule for speed and course calculations. How should I attack?

33 knots is odd since the TF never go faster than the slowest boat in it. Also, You are a legend aready if you can hit an evasive warship doing 33 knots from 4500 yds! You don't need any advice but since you are asking for it; I am sure any attack method won't get you discovered more than another. Only the metal of your cigar, the wake of your scope or the noise of your knees shaking.

My first guess trying to figure out your situation is: They know you're here already, get as close/fast as you can to take your shot.

The attack method really depends on your position and how much borrowed time you have. I don't have any mod installed making the solution faster than what's in the game and TMO already BUT, I've been practicing all attack methods so I can switch quickly depending on the situation. I also prioritize on gathering plot info a.s.a.p.

They are most probably zigzagging already so forget about constant bearing or PK. More possibility of error means you need a more error tolerant method. I would go for Cromwell or O'kane but once again I don't know your position. One thing that doesn't change: Closer is better

The speed and angle on bow will have to be an average on their true bearing. The best is to have their true bearing marked before they start zigging. Otherwise you have to make an assesment of their zigs:

You can make an assesment by using periscope up/map while taking their speed. You simply mark for the speed 3 minutes on the true bearing line ignoring the zigs. AoB is also taken from the relative true bearing. While the chrono is ticking you have enough time to figure out how wide is a zig and how much time they take to complete one. Once your solution is set the attack map will tell you how much time it will take for your torpedo to get there. Try to time your shot so the torpedo will hit when the target AoB is the closest to 90 degrees. It's obvious that spreading the shots are also maximizing your chance in this case.

huh, what? I'm still typing? ok enough aready.




-----------TF attacks:

1. Get in position from very very far and wait so you don't get detected
2. Be more silent than death or make them believe you are somewhere else
3. Get as close as you can from your target but never in front of or closer than 2500 yds of an escort.
4. The best plot is an early plot. No mod will change that. Anticipation is the key.
5. Shoot everything you have because you won't get a second chance.
6. Being in a good position to attack a speeding task force is a strike of luck and a luxury. You have to know when to let go. Moreover you will have to let go most of the time or reload your game and get in a good position before they come in radar range.
7. Did I wrote not to get detected?

Found a post from Armistead about more IJN radar and sonar mods if you want to try it before you hit Esc. > Exit to Windows:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=177317

Hope this was somehow helpful.