TMO and dd evasion--my technique fails.

[Armistead]

For one I will have the base speed long before I attack, when cams offs using radar mod or just a guess based on if I can parallel it's course and match speed, pass it, ect. Most TF run at 17-19kts. Usually I let them find me on radar and will run from the group so they will go into zig mode, that slows them down and I will run away until the escorts turn back and track my end around.

When I want to attack I will have course by making marks and using the tools to figure his base track, again using radar mod or if contacts on rather simple, no need to explain.

The only TF I've seen hit 30kts of more are the fast dd groups in the slot, but I attack them all the time as they come in one line.

Usually when I pull the DD's away and dive I hope to be 3-5000 yards off my attack track and not come back to surface. I did surface once in my Y attack because I was able, but that's rare.. If you can pull the escorts away at about 5nm's I've never had a problem diving going flank and putting them 3000 yards behind me hunting out of sonar range. If a TF is going faster say 24kts...you still should be able to travel 1500 yards at flank before they can reach 5nms, giving you a 1500 yard shot.

Sort of think of it as a triangle. The TF the tip coming down the left line, the escorts coming faster down the right line and you the bottom line right moving left wanting to be where the left line connects your base before the TF gets there and the escorts should be searching at the base right line when you attack.

When I attack, I'm setting up a normal two stad measurments for course and speed, leave PK locked, unlock scope, reset bearing at the bow and shoot by the wire. The group should be zigging, you may even get into the middle of it before you need to shoot and can use all tubes on several targets. Often you'll have to guess AOB based on his zig pattern, not what it is at the moment.

[I'm goin' down]

17 miles due north of Samar from the center of the Island, the Jap Fleet was travelling at 32-33 kts. heading in a south easterly direction. On their return trip, it was travelling at 22-23 kts. I fired a blind salvo at around 8,000yds and had three hits on a BB (a true once in a lifetime strike.) The torepdoes were set for less than 10 ft running depth and did not slow the target down. The TF was travelling two rows and was LARGE, completely ringed by escorts.

[Armistead]

I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts.

This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

[Marko]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts.

This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

Writing down this invaluable infos from ComSubPac for future use in RSRD

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts.

This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

I do not know whose fleet it was or where it was heading to or coming from. It was totally encircled by dds/escorts, and I recall there were two log columns of captal ships. I did not take an inventory when I flew over with my camera, but there were lots of BBs. I only got one speed reading in each direction, so I cannot say I am certain on the speed of the TF. However, I tried to get a head of them when I first spotted them, and they exceeded the speed of Balao which was at 22-24 kts. I finally gave up on that plan, and went for what turned out to be a lucky shot at long range.

[Armistead]

No doubt it's the Center Force of Kurita that comes through the Sibuyen Sea through the San Bern, two long rows of capital ships encircled by many DD's. The Yamato's bring up the rear. As this group exits the San Bern it heads sort of SSE where it comes in slight contact with the US jeep carrier force. Soundd like you found them coming around Samar going fast. Lurker has them turning back on each other so they don't do a massive battle or the Yamato's would eat them alive, but I've seen a few DD's do battle. A good place to catch the group is in the San Bern, so narrow the group will have to come over you.
If you miss it, just remember it comes back the 26th. As you stated it's faster than your sub so if it gets ahead, you're not gonna catch it either way.

The other force is the Southern Force that comes through the Surigao Strait same night, but just two Kongo's and several CA's and DD's, but you'll see several US TF that easily deal with it. Nice surface battle and you can easily finish off many damaged ships.

Course also the northern carrier group, battle of Cape Equano as discussed in another thread.

Here is an old SS of the two lines. If you catch it in the Sibuyan Sea..think that's how it's spelled the 24th you can watch it get attacked in mass by planes, another good time to attack it and you have more room.

[I'm goin' down]

That looks like the TF! It is a LARGE TF and well guarded. Nice work finding it. You must have dissected Lurker's TF history!

Couple of issues on the subject of attacking a TF at 100 percent realism with map contacts enabled (the activation box is unchecked.)

I stll cannot seem to escape the dds and escorts. I have tried pointing my bow at the lead dd and diving under it, moving further ahead of the TF after after the dds spot my boat, etc. Nothing has worked. They find me. Maybe someone can put up a tutorial with screen shots? Also, I have not been able to get speed per the 3 minute rule because the TF silouettes do not appear until after the dds have pounced. I just do not have time. I have tried to get speed per the speed dial key on the Attack Tool speed dial if and when I am able resurface close to the TF main line. A screen shot tutorial would be a great help. I assume it would involve TMO 2.0 activated, map contacts enabled, PK activated, Easy Aob Mod activated, but who knows what, if anything will be posted? I could use a visual of the tactics to get into firing position. I do not think there is a good tutorial on attacking TFs. This is advanced sim warfare especially when the dds and escorts have the AI programmed by Ducimus. I can try the long range shot, but closing for a kill as Armistead has described appears beyong me without a good tutorial to show the way. Robbins could use it in his bag of tricks tutorial.

[CaptainJack]

Originally Posted by Armistead

When I attack, I'm setting up a normal two stad measurments for course and speed, leave PK locked, unlock scope, reset bearing at the bow and shoot by the wire.

Thanks for this tip Armistead - I've been reading your posts in this thread with interest since I've been kind of locked into the O'Kane firing method and have been looking for a good method to "fire on the fly." I want to make sure I understand your method correctly though since I'm still getting some misses and usually missing ahead of the target. So if I understand correctly, you are taking two stadimeter readings for target bearing and range (with some elapsed time between readings), then setting angle on the bow according to target course (easy AOB), then setting target speed? Then is it one more stadimeter reading prior to PK on? Or do you set AOB and speed prior to second stadimeter reading then PK lock? Once PK is activated, am I understanding correctly that you are unlocking scope, setting wire on target bow, clicking on send to TDC for wire bearing then shooting by wire... say mast, MOT, mast? Does that sound right?

Sorry for all the questions - I just want to make sure I'm doing it right. It seems like once PK is set, the TDC is going to be constantly updating lead angle for the target - which is why I am a little confused by the unlock scope-leave PK on-set wire on target bow and set bearing-shoot by wire. It seems like setting the bearing again with wire on target bow could cause fish to have an even greater lead angle and run ahead. Let me know if I'm thoroughly confused Thanks!

[I'm goin' down]

How do you get a stadimeter reading for target bearing? (I do not think you can.)

1. The target's bearing is the number degrees displayed on the periscope when you have it locked on the target. You get speed by clicking the speed button on the Speed Dial, but, as I recall, you have to be locked on the target for this method to work. Of course, you can measure speed by other methods such as the three minute rule.

2. You get range from the range dial.

3. You set the Aob per the Easy Aob mod by setting it to match the target's true course per the compass tool. If you use Easy Aob, once speed and course are established and entered on the Attack Dials, you can turn on the PK. The TDC should begin following the target. You can input range after the PK is activated, as the TDC is tracking the target's course and speed. (Note, using Easy Aob: If more than one target is on the same course, after firing at the first target, all that is required is a range adjustment to track the second target.)

As for firing by the wire, I have no idea what Armistead is talking about. Take a look in the Bag of Tricks thread re Rock n Shoals constant bearing method in lieu of the O'Kane method. You can use it at long distance without activating the PK. Now for Armistead to impart his brillance... How he avoids dds is beyond me, if TMO is applied using its original AI.

[Dignan]

It's my understanding that you don't ever turn on the PK when using the O'Kane method. AT least I never do when doing a 90 degree O'Kane style attack but I'll let the experts chime in to confirm. That may be where you are getting your misses from.

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by Dignan

It's my understanding that you don't ever turn on the PK when using the O'Kane method. AT least I never do when doing a 90 degree O'Kane style attack but I'll let the experts chime in to confirm. That may be where you are getting your misses from.

This thread is not about O'Kane, which does not require the PK to be activated--just like the constant bearing method. My issue is how to avoid the dds in TMO 2.0, which, if explained by others, needs further amplification.

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

This thread is not about O'Kane, which does not require the PK to be activated--just like the constant bearing method. My issue is how to avoid the dds in TMO 2.0, which, if explained by others, needs further amplification.

Sorry, wasn't trying to hijack the thread. Just responding to CaptainJack's question.

Carry on with the DD evasion discussion....a topic I am also interested in learning more about.

[ZigmundFreund]

Ok, I think we need some more info from our friend Down 'cause this thread is going sideways. It is also a subject I love to debate.

Personaly I managed to learn how to avoid Ducimus' escorts just by reading page 40 to 45 of TMO_20.pdf manual (and a lot of reading in this forum). If you want more explanation about the last paragraph "So what the hell do i do if i have multiple escorts camping out up top?" then Bubblehead1980 is being very useful here.




I found those threads very useful as well. You'll find various opinions, as various as there is attack situations:

1. Ducimus' "The "uber" AI demystified"
2. Help avoiding detection
3. Clear something up about thermal layer

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Recently, I have been setting up at a range of 3,500 - 4,500 yds using the the constant bearing technique (...) escorts, which parallel the main line on each side by approximately 1,000 - 3,000 yds.

About attack technique, I prefer Cromwell's 45 degree AoB approach against speedy task forces because it's ideal to slip between front/flank escorts and it adds-up torps' speed with their speed making the fishes very difficult to avoid.

Anyway, if you can hit a target moving at more than 20 knots from a distance 4,500 yds, you definitely don't need advice on the attack technique. I'm totally unable to do that range with constant bearing.

I agree with Armistead when he said that fixed attack method is dangerous. It is dangerous especially when you are stubborn to stick to only one attack method. Most probably sticking to constant bearing technique IS the reason why you fail and reload your game endlessly.

Are you ending up too close (closer than 2500 yds) to a DD if the main line is at 4500 yds and the flank escort is around 2500 yds in between?
Are you making too much noise trying to catch up or keep your constant bearing? Don't let the escorts get closer than 2500 yds and stop even making noise by breathing when they are that close. Even the repair crew have to be disabled.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Regardless, the protective dd cordon ends with a radar track on my boat, even if it has dived before the unleashed torpedoes impact the chosen target(s). (...)By the way the October 15, 1944 career start missions will lead to large TFs on their way to Luzon.

You said it, you're attacking a TF full of radar equiped capital ship with experienced escorts. Forget about any surface approach. Find their general heading using radar from a safe distance (means more than 8 nm.) and fly in their path at a safe distance (means out of radar range). Dive and pretend you don't exist until they get in range.

If you are not in a good position to attack then Armistead technique to lure the DDs away is a good approach, although I never manage to do this one succesfully against a task force. Making them believe you are somewhere else is a potential approach but you need enough distance to disappear and not too much distance to catch up with the target... More maths on the map.

Let me quote our guru RR on this one: "Once you're detected, the hunt for merchies is over and you're engaged in evasion of escorts. In the meantime, the merchies will get away. So rule #1: don't be detected." Even more true with a task force, you have one pass and you are lucky if you can make a second pass to finish the damaged ships.

Sometimes you have to accept your position is too crappy and let go the attack. Try to figure out where they are going or if they are coming back, ambush them in a strait or next to their destination port or just curse the engineers that gave you so lousy diesels. If you don't want to let it go then find what gets you detected or cowboy your way around the DDs to spray and pray.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

DDs have found my boat at a depth of 600 ft., and sunk it. (...) If I angle my boat towards the oncoming task force to yield a smaller radar profile to the oncoming dds and escorts

If they sank your boat while you were 600 ft. deep it means you were either stopped or going straight with a constant speed? You have to play with them more than that. Once again Bubblehead1980 advices are spot on if you ask me. I would like to add; When a DD ping he's not listening. When he's not pinging he's certainly listening. When he's pinging do not touch time compression!!!

If you want to know more about the AI, search by user for Ducimus in this forum. I believe you know he's the AI scientist here and I got most of my info by searching his posts.

You can avoid any depth charge attack by being deep, evasive and at flank speed. There is no reason run silent if you hear depth charges getting wet. Remember also that the depth is set before launch so changing depth can save your ass as well. I spent a lot of time in the slot during 1942 pissing off the 6 to 12 DD convoys by shelling them and then practice evasion. 'Died a lot of times but it was worth it.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Okay. I have shook off the dds and escrorts by submerging and surfacing between where they spotted me and the TF track. But the TF is moving fast. If I set up for constant bearing or O'Kane, you indicate I will be discovered. I assume you are turning on the PK and using manual targeting while closing on the TF after you have resurfaced at your predesignated position. This mean you have to have the track of the TF, identified the target's, entered speed and course, and determined range. (ie. I assume you are using the Easy Aob mod). How do you find time to do that when the TF can be doing over 20 kts? In one Lyete Gulf battle I calculated the TF speed at 33 kts. Note I set up at approximately 4,500 yds off the TF track and well ahead of it. I dive and resurface uon being spotted at around 2,000 yds. According to your post I should continue to close as I fire torpedoes. Between the time I dive and resurface the TF is really close, and their is insufficient time to use the 3 minute rule for speed and course calculations. How should I attack?

33 knots is odd since the TF never go faster than the slowest boat in it. Also, You are a legend aready if you can hit an evasive warship doing 33 knots from 4500 yds! You don't need any advice but since you are asking for it; I am sure any attack method won't get you discovered more than another. Only the metal of your cigar, the wake of your scope or the noise of your knees shaking.

My first guess trying to figure out your situation is: They know you're here already, get as close/fast as you can to take your shot.

The attack method really depends on your position and how much borrowed time you have. I don't have any mod installed making the solution faster than what's in the game and TMO already BUT, I've been practicing all attack methods so I can switch quickly depending on the situation. I also prioritize on gathering plot info a.s.a.p.

They are most probably zigzagging already so forget about constant bearing or PK. More possibility of error means you need a more error tolerant method. I would go for Cromwell or O'kane but once again I don't know your position. One thing that doesn't change: Closer is better

The speed and angle on bow will have to be an average on their true bearing. The best is to have their true bearing marked before they start zigging. Otherwise you have to make an assesment of their zigs:

You can make an assesment by using periscope up/map while taking their speed. You simply mark for the speed 3 minutes on the true bearing line ignoring the zigs. AoB is also taken from the relative true bearing. While the chrono is ticking you have enough time to figure out how wide is a zig and how much time they take to complete one. Once your solution is set the attack map will tell you how much time it will take for your torpedo to get there. Try to time your shot so the torpedo will hit when the target AoB is the closest to 90 degrees. It's obvious that spreading the shots are also maximizing your chance in this case.

huh, what? I'm still typing? ok enough aready.




-----------TF attacks:

1. Get in position from very very far and wait so you don't get detected
2. Be more silent than death or make them believe you are somewhere else
3. Get as close as you can from your target but never in front of or closer than 2500 yds of an escort.
4. The best plot is an early plot. No mod will change that. Anticipation is the key.
5. Shoot everything you have because you won't get a second chance.
6. Being in a good position to attack a speeding task force is a strike of luck and a luxury. You have to know when to let go. Moreover you will have to let go most of the time or reload your game and get in a good position before they come in radar range.
7. Did I wrote not to get detected?

Found a post from Armistead about more IJN radar and sonar mods if you want to try it before you hit Esc. > Exit to Windows:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=177317

Hope this was somehow helpful.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by CaptainJack

Thanks for this tip Armistead - I've been reading your posts in this thread with interest since I've been kind of locked into the O'Kane firing method and have been looking for a good method to "fire on the fly." I want to make sure I understand your method correctly though since I'm still getting some misses and usually missing ahead of the target. So if I understand correctly, you are taking two stadimeter readings for target bearing and range (with some elapsed time between readings), then setting angle on the bow according to target course (easy AOB), then setting target speed? Then is it one more stadimeter reading prior to PK on? Or do you set AOB and speed prior to second stadimeter reading then PK lock? Once PK is activated, am I understanding correctly that you are unlocking scope, setting wire on target bow, clicking on send to TDC for wire bearing then shooting by wire... say mast, MOT, mast? Does that sound right?

Sorry for all the questions - I just want to make sure I'm doing it right. It seems like once PK is set, the TDC is going to be constantly updating lead angle for the target - which is why I am a little confused by the unlock scope-leave PK on-set wire on target bow and set bearing-shoot by wire. It seems like setting the bearing again with wire on target bow could cause fish to have an even greater lead angle and run ahead. Let me know if I'm thoroughly confused Thanks!

You're correct in all your assuptions. I do leave the PK on just until I fire and unlock both PK and scope. If I didn't make that clear, my bad. Once I unlock the scope, I'll set a new bearing in front of the ship and wait for it to come to it and shoot by the wire. Sometimes for speed I'll set new bearings for each shot where I want to shoot instead of waiting for the ship to cross the wire, usually in the middle of a TF with escorts coming almost always shooting at large ships, sometimes seconds count.

My first one is almost always at the bow or in front of it to hold a ship in place from speeding up so the others will hit. Usually I'll hit with all. Sometimes I'll even then change speed a few knots slower to make a spread. If a group is zigging and I can figure AOB of both legs, I split the difference. Still, most the time I guess where my torps need to be and set it up that way.

MOT...Middle of the Target.