Germany to Make Forced Marriage a Crime

[MH]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

If so, why do you support denying this to animals?

I really don't think about it too much while eating my stake or god forbid bacon.
As I just don't care what Muslim eat or what god they prey to as long as they obey rules of democracy and human rights.(which some do even in Israel)
For me is live and let me live my own life the way i want.
I remember you legitimizing hammas and now you segregate people according to food chain and talk about animal rights-kind of odd.

I don't think that forcing a person to eat pork or stunned cow will make him good westerner.

Outlawing dark ages forced marriage may save some souls but the key is education and equal opportunity while fighting terrorist and religious extremists within your or any country without mercy.

Weather stunned cow dies better death than kosher or whatever cow can be a whole 100 pages debate.

[the_tyrant]

What i really hate is how religion gives people special privileges
Why do I have to sit through Biology and Physical education while others simply skip because of their beliefs?
Next time I would say because of my beliefs(political religions count right?) I can't learn French, because its spoken by the Bolshevik.

[Dan D]

May be I am repeating myself but forced marriage has always been a criminal offense here in Germany under the existing code penal from 1870: section 240 “Coercion”, imprisonment up to 3 years.

A couple of years ago, section 240 subsection 4 was altered the way that “forced marriage” became an explicit “especially serious case” of coercion with imprisonment up to 5 years.

Now this: the law was changed again, they added a whole new section, same range of punishment: up to five years.

It is the same legal situation as before.

A typical political stunt; to address a problem by making tougher laws instead of actually doing something about it. It costs no money and it makes you look good in the eye of the voters who think that something is done about it, “you see we are tough on crime”.

I bet that something like 50 % of Germans will conclude that before this law reform “forced marriage” was fully legal in Germany and quite common in the neighbourhood. People have ideas!

I foresee that the policemen union will complain that the police will need more money and more personnel to do the extra job. They have a point because tough law is one thing but effective law enforcement is the key to lower crime rates.

A general observation: once a law has been made tougher, this won’t be changed again, even if after a couple of decades everything has turned back to normal and the hysteria is gone; because people got used to it and politicians who want to liberalise the penal code are not liked by voters, weak on crime nancies.

To give a counter example: 20 years ago they found out that the crime “rape” has a very high estimated number of unreported cases. What was done about it? Someone took some money to finance a special program that gives special teaching to female police officers and each police station now ought to have a female rape crime specialist that does the first talks with the rape victim and helps to save the evidence (don’t shower, don’t wash the underpants etc.).

Statistically this probably means that we have more (reported) rape crimes than before but I think the point is clear.

With regard to forced marriage, an alternative would have been to not touch the law and instead to spend some money for e.g. shelters for battered women because if you break up with your family you need a safe place to stay to make up your mind about how to carry on. Also, chances that affected women report of attempts of forced marriages against them would rise.

May be if extra social workers do home visits and talk to people and mediate and help women to get out, that would be a good idea, too. But then again, this costs money.

Ok, enough :=).
I know this is unpopular, “now they even spend our hard-earned tax money on immigrant problems”, but I you are honest about “forced marriage” as being a real problem and not only see as an additional chance to bash some muslims. then one should take a deeper look and ask what measures could be efficient.

To thoughen the law is many times just feel good politics. In a next step in estimated 10 years, the range of imprisonment for force marriages will be raised to up to 10 years.

You read it here first.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by MH

I really don't think about it too much while eating my stake or god forbid bacon.
As I just don't care what Muslim eat or what god they prey to as long as they obey rules of democracy and human rights.(which some do even in Israel)
For me is live and let me live my own life the way i want.
I remember you legitimizing hammas and now you segregate people according to food chain and talk about animal rights-kind of odd.

I don't think that forcing a person to eat pork or stunned cow will make him good westerner.

Outlawing dark ages forced marriage may save some souls but the key is education and equal opportunity while fighting terrorist and religious extremists within your or any country without mercy.

Weather stunned cow dies better death than kosher or whatever cow can be a whole 100 pages debate.

And animals are not people, i dont see halal or kosher slaughter that immoral.
The asian custom of ripping the skin of from an live animal i do consider a brutal practice.
In nature animals eat each other alive. So comparing to that, as long as you respect the animal you are going eat, its fine by me.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by MH

I really don't think about it too much while eating my stake or god forbid bacon.
As I just don't care what Muslim eat or what god they prey to as long as they obey rules of democracy and human rights.(which some do even in Israel)

but they don't obey the rules of animal rights. Rules that us Westerners have to comply to, otherwise we get fined. But the immigrants are somehow above that. They don't have to comply to the law. Or at least not to the same law as us. Discrimination, eh?

For me is live and let me live my own life the way i want.
I remember you legitimizing hammas and now you segregate people according to food chain and talk about animal rights-kind of odd.

how is this segregating people according to food chain? I'm not saying muslims may or may not eat some kinds of food. I'm just saying muslims should comply to the same law as non-muslims. Why do muslims have different rights than non-muslims?

I don't think that forcing a person to eat pork or stunned cow will make him good westerner.

It's the law. It's not about being "Western" or not. But if they come to *our* countries, they should obey *our* rules, rather than have the luxury of being allowed to do what they want how they want it.

BTW, AFAIK cows generally don't get stunned, they just get a headshot with a pin. Instakill. No pain.

Originally Posted by Happy Times

And animals are not people, i dont see halal or kosher slaughter that immoral.

Hurting an animal isn't immoral, while hurting a human is? Strange. I always thought humans were animals as well.

In nature animals eat each other alive. So comparing to that, as long as you respect the animal you are going eat, its fine by me.

Because animals aren't able to kill "humanely". So weren't we, let's say 100 years ago. So weren't muslims 100 years ago.
But now we live in an age where it's quite easy to kill animals in a "humane" way without too much trouble. Why not do so?

And otherwise, if you insist on giving people the right to *not* kill in a humane way, give that right to westerners as well instead of only to muslims.

To me, respecting an animal means treating it in a respectable manner, and that includes killing it in a respectable manner. The cow doesn't care if it dies for Allah or God or whatever supernatural being. It just cares about dying and pain. So don't come up with the crap of religious rituals that supposedly are to pay respect to the animal. A slaughtered animal doesn't care about those rituals, it only cares about its feelings.

[gimpy117]

good for germany

[Happy Times]

Hurting an animal isn't immoral, while hurting a human is? Strange. I always thought humans were animals as well.

Because animals aren't able to kill "humanely". So weren't we, let's say 100 years ago. So weren't muslims 100 years ago.
But now we live in an age where it's quite easy to kill animals in a "humane" way without too much trouble. Why not do so?

You are contradicting yourself and humanizing animals, that is very common these days but it is wrong.

To me, respecting an animal means treating it in a respectable manner, and that includes killing it in a respectable manner. The cow doesn't care if it dies for Allah or God or whatever supernatural being. It just cares about dying and pain. So don't come up with the crap of religious rituals that supposedly are to pay respect to the animal. A slaughtered animal doesn't care about those rituals, it only cares about its feelings.

Are you serious? Its feelings?
This is the reason i have had an idea that killing and slaughtering animals should be a mandatory subject in school before our children are completely detached from reality.

Have you killed, slaughtered and eaten anything, ever?

Truthfully, who cares what happens in Germany? If the country gets too upity it will be slammed. Beyond that, it, Germany, is not a power and the opinions of its citizens mean very little.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by The Third Man

Truthfully, who cares what happens in Germany? If the country gets too upity it will be slammed. Beyond that, it, Germany, is not a power and the opinions of its citizens mean very little.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

You are contradicting yourself and humanizing animals, that is very common these days but it is wrong.

Firstly, you are nitpicking on the use of the words "humanely" and "animal". Alright, I'll change it: "Because animals other than humans aren't able to kill in a painless and compassionate manner." Now I'm not "contradicting" myself anymore so please stop the nitpicking and move along.

Secondly, I'm not humanizing animals (see below). I'm just saying that we should avoid unnecessary suffering. And especially that muslims shouldn't have more rights than westerners (not less either, but also not more).

Are you serious? Its feelings?
This is the reason i have had an idea that killing and slaughtering animals should be a mandatory subject in school before our children are completely detached from reality.

Have you killed, slaughtered and eaten anything, ever?

Maybe I should have used a different word. I'm not talking about human feelings, as in emotions, but about basic, primal "feelings", e.g. pain, stress or fear.
I'm very aware that animals don't have much emotions besides these primal ones, so don't you worry about that and instead start answering my questions and discussing my points

[Happy Times]

Firstly, you are nitpicking on the use of the words "humanely" and "animal". Alright, I'll change it: "Because animals other than humans aren't able to kill in a painless and compassionate manner." Now I'm not "contradicting" myself anymore so please stop the nitpicking and move along.

Well you still are and im not trying to nitpick as i hate it myself.
.

Maybe I should have used a different word. I'm not talking about human feelings, as in emotions, but about basic, primal "feelings", e.g. pain, stress or fear.
I'm very aware that animals don't have much emotions besides these primal ones, so don't you worry about that and instead start answering my questions and discussing my points

Humans arent animals and the method we kill our food has this narcistic moral relevance only to us.
But as methods go the Halal/Kosher method is more painless than many hunting techniques.
So again, i dont consider it immoral.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Humans arent animals and the method we kill our food has this narcistic moral relevance only to us.

We aren't? We posess self-awareness and reason, but other than that exactly how are we not animals?

[Platapus]

What exactly is a "forced marriage" and how does that differ from an "arraigned marriage"

What are the measurable elements of the crime of "forced Marriage"?

When it comes to writing laws, the devil is in the detail.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Platapus

What exactly is a "forced marriage" and how does that differ from an "arraigned marriage"

What are the measurable elements of the crime of "forced Marriage"?

When it comes to writing laws, the devil is in the detail.

Unless it's aranged between the bride and the groom every arrainged marriage should be forced mariage