A question about the Sonar Ping

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by WernherVonTrapp

That "ping" (is) the reflection sound, as it bounces off your sub.

In reality you would hear a escort pinging when using active sonar regardless if he had you. Most the time escorts didn't run the seas using active sonar, in some cases could be picked up 50nms away. A few stories of escorts doing this in the war and subs used it to track to the position. That's another failure of the game, you only hear active sonar when you're in it's cone. It's really an obvious advantage to us, we know when we hear pinging we've been located, in reality they didn't.

I assume subs could hear the return ping, knowing then they were in trouble....? I think that's what KM means and no that's not in the game, the subs return ping to the enemy. However, when you sub uses active sonar, we can hear the return ping and get distance to the target which you're aware of......maybe that's what he was referring to as a guess, the return "bong", not the active ping....

Geesh, I confuse myself on these pain meds....

.

[KriegsMarine]

thanx for your info,armistead

so in real life, sub skippers could only hear the escort's active sonar ping while could not hear the bouncing sound caused by the sub hull ?

so in SHCE the bouncing sound we hear in a sub is not realistic, right?

[NorthBeach]

Originally Posted by WernherVonTrapp

He heard, "Ping".

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by KriegsMarine

thanx for your info,armistead

so in real life, sub skippers could only hear the escort's active sonar ping while could not hear the bouncing sound caused by the sub hull ?

so in SHCE the bouncing sound we hear in a sub is not realistic, right?

Well, I was asking Wernher..., he's the brain.

I do know this. In reality if a ship goe's active you will hear the active ping. It doesn't have to have a target, he's searching, so you will hear the active sonar. If the active sonar hits a target, then you get a bounce back, if not, the sound wave will max out. I imagine with the equipment we have today you could pick up active sonar from hundreds of miles in the right conditions.

The return ping doe's sound different, obvious different sound waves on the return. If you're the one using active sonar, if you hit a target, you will hear the return bong in game, so yes, you will hear it if you hit a target.

I read a few stories of subs hearing active sonar from 50 plus nautical miles away. Sometimes the JP's escort did go active leading TF. I guess they thought with speed even if a sub heard them they couldn't catch up, so better to cover the front of the TF with sonar. Obvious a TF
has limited listening skills going fast on the surface. In game ships can only do one thing at a time, use sonar or listen, not both. So even if you're not being pinged, doesn't mean they're not listening. What hasn't been clarified in game to me is can a ship only listen when stationary?

What I was asking Wernher is if he knew is a sub could pick up a return bong. I assume not because the sound wave would be bouncing away, make sense. We don't hear the return in the
game, nor do I think we would. If he has us on shortscale, he's obvious getting a Ping/Bong every few seconds, but we hear only the ping.

Just like in your sub, if you send a active ping, you wait for the return ping, more of a bong....Your ping has hit the target, so it makes a different sound. Using that info you can figure distane to the target. In game it's simple, just wait for the return bong and send to TDC and you get accurate range.

I honestly don't know if subs had active sonar in WW2 that ran all the time as they do today. Obvious they wouldn't use it. The DD's did, so I assume a sub could go active...if he was dumb.

Shew..all this pinging and bonging is getting to me.

All this talk of bongs is giving me the munchies!!!

[Armistead]

Just know this, you go bonging around the Pacific, the DD's will hear it and come right to you, so be very careful about using active sonar. Sometimes I do it with cams and contacts off to get range when they're far away, but I've had escorts leave TF's from 13nms chasing my ping...

Sometimes it's useful, more than not it will slow the TF down as they go into zigs.

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Just know this, you go bonging around the Pacific, the DD's will hear it and come right to you, so be very careful about using active sonar. Sometimes I do it with cams and contacts off to get range when they're far away, but I've had escorts leave TF's from 13nms chasing my ping...

Sometimes it's useful, more than not it will slow the TF down as they go into zigs.

Has anyone ever tried intentionally pinging a convoy from a long distance to intentionally pull the escorts away? The goal would be to then quickly move away from that location hopefully leaving the DDs searching at your last known location. I haven't tried it but was wondering if it would work.

[Armistead]

I do that all the time, just have to do it from far distances and only dive when your worried about a visual.

Right now I've found a huge convoy. I have cam and contacts off, no surface radar. I tracked as best I could with limited sonar until warship was spotted, few seconds later he was shooting, so I dived. Trying to track a convoy with the useless sonar is hard. I have several escorts around and hear pinging. This is the failure of the game, I have no idea what direction the pinging is coming from. Asking your sonarman for nearest warship is almost a joke, so I have no clue what's going on up there. They haven't found me yet, but soon will. All I can try to do is keep the convoy at a rough 90 track so I will have a chance to come up and shoot, hard to do.
In reality you sonarman could give you speed, rough distance and course, not in game. Hard to figure a course of a large zigging convoy. Waters are calm, 200ft deep...I'll be lucky to live through this.

I think a great mod would be only sonar lines show with contact off, so you would have the info a real sonarman would have.

[Dogfish40]

I'm jumping on this rather late but one thing that I happened to ask myself, (being a sound engineer) I wondered if you could use your active sonar to cancel their pings if you could time it right, (an incredibly difficult if not impossible proposal) BUT....lo and behold, there was a protocol to use your active sonar to confuse the enemy when they were pinging. I know that this unfortunately is not written into the game but the Sub Doctrine said something to the effect that ; if you are using the same frequency, you had the possibility of confusing the ememy's active sonar, by pinging back. I'll have to go and get that chapter and share it, it was really interesting that it could be used in a desperate situation. I am sure no one would want to start pinging away when you're trying like hell to hide, but when the chips are down....hey

D40 Cmmdr Uss Gar

[MaddogK]

Just to add my 2 cents worth,
1. You NEVER want to go 'active' on a military ship, if they have any kinda passive sonar you will give them the vector your on and all they have to do is travel down that vector pinging, and they find you.
2. Unless your closing in for a kill you will almost always want to be below the layer. The layer is the boundary between warmer surface waters and the colder 'depths', and normally where sounds from the surface are reflected back toward the surface. Below this layer sound is generally reflected down until pressure refracts is back upward. I have verified the game does indeed model this as hunting destroyers usually cant find you (unless they're right on top of you) if your running silent below the layer.
3. I haven't noticed if the game imitates a doppler shift from shipping noise or active sonar, but it is present in aircraft, I can't imagine why it wouldn't be present in the game for underwater sound (you fellow sonar guys know what I'm talking about). I'll be paying more attention to this in the future.
4. I'm not a WW2 historian but before the advent of audio processing computers sonar operators could tell what type of contact they were tracking simply by listening to the noise it made. The game does a good job of recreating this but there's always room for improvement. There is a difference between tanker noise and a carrier, I'm just not sure how accurate it is (or how accurate it really needs to be), luckily this is an area that can be modded.

This game's sonar is nowhere near the sonar in 688(i) but I can't complain, it could be alot worse. (Me- ex S-3a senso)

[WernherVonTrapp]

Originally Posted by Armistead

What I was asking Wernher is if he knew is a sub could pick up a return bong. I assume not because the sound wave would be bouncing away, make sense. We don't hear the return in the
game, nor do I think we would. If he has us on shortscale, he's obvious getting a Ping/Bong every few seconds, but we hear only the ping.

Just like in your sub, if you send a active ping, you wait for the return ping, more of a bong....Your ping has hit the target, so it makes a different sound. Using that info you can figure distane to the target. In game it's simple, just wait for the return bong and send to TDC and you get accurate range.

Well, I am only drawing an inference based on extrapolated information but, that is exactly how I presume it works too. The initial ping sent out by the DD is omnidirectional, just by the nature of the medium (water) in which it is travelling. So, it's intensity should be constant in all directions. However, I think, once it hits the sub, it loses some of that initial intensity because now it is merely a (reflection) of the original sound (or ping). It may bounce again when some of that reflection returns and hits the hull of the DD but the intensity is diminished and therefore, I'm uncertain as to whether this can be detected by passive devices on the sub. My instinct would dictate that this is totally possible but remember, like Armistead says, the sound (reflection) is now moving away from the sub. To hear it bounce off the DD involves, yet again, another reflection and an even greater loss to the original sound density. You don't actually hear it the second it hits the DD. Just like lightning and thunder, you see the lightning first, you hear it afterwards. With the DD, you can't see it hit the hull, but you may (or may not) hear it's diminished capacity after it travels back to the sub.
Ugh, my head hurts now. Sniff, sniff: Do you smell something burning?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by WernherVonTrapp

The initial ping sent out by the DD is omnidirectional, just by the nature of the medium (water) in which it is travelling.

No, it's not.

[WernherVonTrapp]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

No, it's not.

OK, I wasn't sure, and was therefore assuming that the sonar emitter was not directional during WWII. I knew it was on the newer subs. Thanks for pointing that out, and for the manner in which you did. Everything else should still be applicable.

[aanker]

For 'realism' I ping a friendly DD as I approach a port to refuel or end my patrol. At the sonar station I usually get a return ping from them and it is a different pitch.... they pinged me back with a different pitched ping - (say that 3 times fast) I should be able to hear this ping from anywhere inside the boat but I don't.

I call this procedure, "exchanging recognition signals" even though it isn't. Friendly DD's don't seem to care what I do as long as I don't shoot, with the exception of going 'All Back Full' if we are on a collision course and I have the right of way.

The Jap pings should be different when bouncing off my hull but I haven't noticed that. I agree, SHCE did do a better job with pings that hit my boat.

Happy Hunting!

Art