Not even an icy welcome for German reunification

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Do not think that in Europe states also should not represent the people like they shgould in America. It'S not as if democratic rules are unique for the US only

No but your European parlmentary system works a bit different than ours. Here we tend to vote for individuals whereas you Euros vote for their party.

the problem is the rules get broken here as well as there. Both continents' s political structures are corrupt and rotten to the bone. And both just manipulate the people.

Every government throughout history tries to manipulate the people. However you severely overestimate the degree of corruption and rottenness as least when it comes to the US. This I blame on the extensive detachment between government and population that is the norm in Europe.

As to how the ordinary people perceived reunification, I know that some of the older generations opposed it, but in egneral I think it is no incorrect statement that in general a majority in Wetsern nations did not fear a reunited Germany and indeed meant it honest when congratulating Germans.

I never said that older generations opposed reunification. I said they viewed it with trepidation. That's different. You can feel a bit nervous about someones choices without opposing them.

I would also dare to claim that the majority probably was the bigger, the younger the population group was that you asked for their opinion.

Maybe, but also the younger the population the less aware they are of the history behind it.

It has become clear in recent days and weeks, that the reorientation of the EU and the early introduction of the Euro against all economic reason were the price France demanded to wave reunification through. I lived ten years in a divided city. But still I say that price probably was too high.

So then maybe Germany abrogate the treaty and quit the EU. After all what could France do if you did? Invade? I doubt it.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

No but your European parlmentary system works a bit different than ours. Here we tend to vote for individuals whereas you Euros vote for their party.

The party campaigning is folowing American examples since long. It is pretty much focussed on single faces, not programs. Every party, in federal elections, names one candidate for chancellorship, like you have your parties mentioning just one candidate for president. The campaigns in Germany are not SPD versus CDU. The last one was Merkel versus Steinmeier, and before that it was Schröder versus Merkel.

Every government throughout history tries to manipulate the people. However you severely overestimate the degree of corruption and rottenness as least when it comes to the US. This I blame on the extensive detachment between government and population that is the norm in Europe.

I do not see your governments being less detached from their populations. And economic lobbyism in your politics is even more prominent a distortion of electroal decisions, than it even is in Brussel - and in Bru7ssel it already is a Kraken.

Do not mistake some printed intentions on some 200 year old pergaments, with contemporary realities. And do not allow them clever leaders to play on your emotional, patriotic strings to make you sing their tune. The problem is not the American or German constitutions, but that leading politicians in both countries do not give much for them, and think that it is okay to violate their spirit and meaning if one finds a way to bypass them so that one gets away with it. In the past, you have often said you think I am anti-American. I am not, I hold the American state design in much, much higher esteem than you maybe even imagine. It's just that I see the very wide gap, the wide abyss between how it was meant to be, and how it actually is. The difference between idea, and reality. That difference is immense. And my criticism of America - almost always is aiming not on the founding ideas as the basis of the nation, but the actual state of things.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The party campaigning is folowing American examples since long.

I'm assuming you mean that party campaigning is prevalent? Well it's not. I don't remember the last time I saw a "vote for the Republicans" or vote for the Democrats" advertisement. Most candidate ads nowadays don't even mention party.

It is pretty much focussed on single faces, not programs. Every party, in federal elections, names one candidate for chancellorship, like you have your parties mentioning just one candidate for president. The campaigns in Germany are not SPD versus CDU. The last one was Merkel versus Steinmeier, and before that it was Schröder versus Merkel.

And the lower seats of Parliament? Here we vote for individuals right down to the town dog catcher. Yes, their party helps them financially but it's still the individual we vote for, not so much what party he belongs to.

A prime example of this are states where the Lt. Governor is elected separately from the Governor. Nearly always the voters deliberately choose the Lt Gov. from the opposing political party. That wouldn't happen if people always voted along party lines.

The general feeling around here, especially amongst independents is, as a good friend put it:

" Gridlock, the best form of government for the common man."

I do not see your governments being less detached from their populations.

Well I do. Europeans on this forum for example practically wear their detachment from their respective governments on their sleeves when compared to their American counterparts. When was the last time you read a European actually defend their governments actions? When was the last time you read an American do that here?

And economic lobbyism in your politics is even more prominent a distortion of electroal decisions, than it even is in Brussel - and in Bru7ssel it already is a Kraken.

Not sure what you mean here. Something must be lost in translation.

Do not mistake some printed intentions on some 200 year old pergaments, with contemporary realities. And do not allow them clever leaders to play on your emotional, patriotic strings to make you sing their tune. The problem is not the American or German constitutions, but that leading politicians in both countries do not give much for them, and think that it is okay to violate their spirit and meaning if one finds a way to bypass them so that one gets away with it. In the past, you have often said you think I am anti-American. I am not, I hold the American state design in much, much higher esteem than you maybe even imagine. It's just that I see the very wide gap, the wide abyss between how it was meant to be, and how it actually is. The difference between idea, and reality. That difference is immense. And my criticism of America - almost always is aiming not on the founding ideas as the basis of the nation, but the actual state of things.

Well I appreciate your sentiment but I firmly believe that in the game of politics perception is reality. As long as we continue to believe in the system we keep our hands in the game, and the politicians must therefore continue to respond to it. When they don't you get what will happen this November.

[Skybird]

§%$&&!?'...!!! This is the third time in ten days or so that the server kicks me off track while transmitting a long reply, losing all the text.

Maybe I type it again tomorrow, but for this night my nerves are eaten up.

Sh!t technology.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Skybird

§%$&&!?'...!!! This is the third time in ten days or so that the server kicks me off track while transmitting a long reply, losing all the text.

Maybe I type it again tomorrow, but for this night my nerves are eaten up.

Sh!t technology.

Learn to use NotePad to store your text

[August]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Learn to use NotePad to store your text

Or keep ones messages short and sweet and ones nerves won't get eaten if it does get lost.

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by August

Or keep ones messages short ...

Nope! The Sky(bird) is the limit!



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