Eileen Nearne, 1921-2010

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

Crap, forgot to pay my respects to that brave woman.

I was wondering what the heck you were on about.

Anyhow we should all be greatfull for this brave womans life.

I would really like to hear details on her clandestine radio contacts. I bet it would be a fascinating story.

Rest in Peace.

[antikristuseke]

I get distracted easily when at work, it is the abject boredo mof my work, my appologies. No, I am not trying to be sarcastic.

[Bilge_Rat]

yes, very brave woman and as the article points out, she was never quite the same after the war because of her experiences.

One question I have concerns this quote:

the Gestapo tortured her — beating her, stripping her naked, then submerging her repeatedly in a bath of ice-cold water until she began to black out from lack of oxygen.

why is it torture when the GESTAPO does this, but when American interrogators use a similar technique, i.e. waterboarding, it is not torture?

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

yes, very brave woman and as the article points out, she was never quite the same after the war because of her experiences.

One question I have concerns this quote:

why is it torture when the GESTAPO does this, but when American interrogators use a similar technique, i.e. waterboarding, it is not torture?

It IS torture. Don't let yourself be fooled by "patriotic" hubbub

Greetings,
Catfish

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

why is it torture when the GESTAPO does this, but when American interrogators use a similar technique, i.e. waterboarding, it is not torture?

There is no comparison between what they did and what we do... because "they" are always the bad guys, and "we" are always the good guys, and what the good guys do is always acceptable (unless the bad guys do it, in which case it's just plain wrong).

This is obviously the case, since it's been stated time and time again, by people who are more than happy to do all our thinking for us on this issue, that "We don't torture" - so how could anything "we" do be called that? It just wouldn't be logical!

/sarcasm

[tater]

Since the nazis actually (routinely) tortured people to death, and everyone knew this, there is all the difference in the world (and the two methods in question are not the same).

If the US does it to you (all 3 guys who were so-treated) you can be confident that they're going to not kill you, or even permanently harm you. When the nazis so much as talked to you, you had no certainty that the conversation would not end with you dead, right there, on the spot.

[Catfish]

And what makes you think that this islamic insurgent "swine" or "sand ******" as he's called by his torturers, is not in fear of dying during his imprisonment ? How can he be sure he's not just waterboarded to death ? This is the whole purpose of torture, mind you, to get information by scaring people to death.

B.t.w. the training of the marines is quite similar to that of the SS, minus being Nazis
Yes i know they're the good guys. The difference is in the moral background.

Greetings,
Catfish

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by tater

Since the nazis actually (routinely) tortured people to death, and everyone knew this, there is all the difference in the world (and the two methods in question are not the same).

If the US does it to you (all 3 guys who were so-treated) you can be confident that they're going to not kill you, or even permanently harm you. When the nazis so much as talked to you, you had no certainty that the conversation would not end with you dead, right there, on the spot.

So your definition of "torture" only includes situations where you end up dead, or where your death is intended?

Fine, let me strap these electrodes to you. Don't worry, I won't use enough juice to kill you, and I'm telling you ahead of time that I have no intention of causing your death, and I'm convinced that if I'm really careful I won't do you any permanent damage.

So I'm assuming you'll be perfectly fine with me jolting your nuts with as much electricity as I like, as many time as I like, for as long as I like, so long as those conditions are met.

Yeah, right.

[tater]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

So your definition of "torture" only includes situations where you end up dead, or where your death is intended?

Fine, let me strap these electrodes to you. Don't worry, I won't use enough juice to kill you, and I'm telling you ahead of time that I have no intention of causing your death, and I'm convinced that if I'm really careful I won't do you any permanent damage.

So I'm assuming you'll be perfectly fine with me jolting your nuts with as much electricity as I like, as many time as I like, for as long as I like, so long as those conditions are met.

Yeah, right.

The GC requires that to be considered torture, it cause "severe" physical or mental harm. That is the definition.

The two techniques described are of course not at all the same (being submerged in water vs having a cloth wetted), but assuming that both nations did "waterboarding" we'd have an equal comparison, so let's downgrade the nazi method described to be waterboarding.

Since waterboarding is NOT lethal done by the US, the GC here is not really in force for physical harm for the US. It IS in force for the nazis, because clearly they'd happily keep pouring until you died.

So in the physical harm category we have the US method NOT ever leaving "severe" physical damage. With the nazis... severe physical damage (death) is quite possible if not likely.

OK, how about severe psychological damage. Here there is certainly a case against it on the US side, we're in agreement. Does it reach the "severe" requirement of the GC? Quite possibly, but then again, the GC was written in an intentionally vague way to allow rough treatment (clearly, or they'd have forbidden ANY harm). What about the nazis? Hmm, since the person being interrogated KNOWS they will kill him without a second thought, the effect of the SAME waterboarding would be FAR more severe mentally. You KNOW they shoot people summarily on the street. You KNOW they torture people to death, wholesale. It then is LIKELY in your mind that they WILL kill you with this.

So, while waterboarding might well be psychological torture, period, it is FAR more likely to reach that benchmark done by people known to torture people to death. Note that Bin Laden's own remarks regarding what AQ could expect as retaliation from the US (pre-9-11) included him saying that the US would likely subpoena them for making an attack. KSM, et al, clearly had a low opinion of US force of will in terms of dealing with them, so I imagine as uncomfortable as the interrogations were, he intellectually did not expect to die.

[Herr-Berbunch]

This was the second Agent Rose to pass away this year, the first in March. Respect to all the members of SOE - all of whom were disgracefully kicked out of France at the first opportunity after Germany's capitulation by an embarrassed CDG, only gaining recognition and thanks years later.

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

So I'm assuming you'll be perfectly fine with me jolting your nuts with as much electricity as I like, as many time as I like, for as long as I like, so long as those conditions are met.

How much?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

yes, very brave woman and as the article points out, she was never quite the same after the war because of her experiences.

One question I have concerns this quote:





why is it torture when the GESTAPO does this, but when American interrogators use a similar technique, i.e. waterboarding, it is not torture?

Because when we do it, it is called "enhanced interrogation". When they do it it is called torture.

When they do it to us, it is called a warcrime

The term hubris comes to mind

[Platapus]

If you like this sort of history (and I do), check out Sisterhood of Spies by Elizabeth McIntosh.

If you made a movie about these ladies, no one would believe it.

These were some true heroes. Risking all and receiving little or no recognition.

Even today, there are OSS operatives whose names can not be released.