Do We Really Have What It Takes?

[rein1705]

Ive played SH4 900 so odd hours and i cannot tell you what all the controls do that i can see inside the control room of my boat can you? i know the principles of it all and i understand how and why my sub works and what to do with her but id be LOST completely inside one of these boats if i had to DO something.

[CaptainMattJ.]

no. all these are complete understatements. TOTAL understatements.

Theres no "oops i rammed into an island i didnt see, time to reload". theres no "one hole isnt gonna do THAT much damage". that depends. a serious size hole is a death warrant. a kind of small hole isnt. as long as the pressure hull stays intact and it only breached that little space that they have to allow water to pass freely inbetween the hull and outer hull."

theres no TC. its hours upon hours of the same damn noise, rocking, and boredom (mostly). its crap food, cramped spaces, and no F-ing around. you mess up their boat and youll be put out of the job (if you take unnecessary risks). You have to be dominate, and instill respect, hope, and a little fear into your subordinates for them to blindly follow you into the depths of hell. Your equipment OFTEN breaks down, you dont know where the hell you are exactly for about 12 hours everyday.

Theres just about no captain alive who knows what every dam valve or knob does on his ship unless its a sailboat. Ever gone into the queen mary or Midway's engine rooms. at first glance you think its Dr seusse's Worst nightmare. Theres so many valves and pipes that it doesnt even seem real. Its just about endless black if you look down from a catwalk. its gritty dirty and downright scary. On a sub, its a little different. a captain COULD possibly learn every valve and knob. And then theres the Depth Charges.
Oh man. you cant imagine how terrifying those can be. If your running at about 90 meters (if your boat can handle it), and a depth charge blew a hole in your pressure hull. Guess what. Youd be INCINERATED. its unimaginable. Literally one second you could be alive and IN THAT SAME SECOND you could become INCINERATED. Just like that. Or maybe it sparks a fire which in turn burn a main gas line or something flammable and Your entire sub is going bye Bye.

Or maybe a plane comes outta nowhere and drops a 1000 LB bomb just like that. Or maybe your Dive planes fail and/or your ballast tanks fail. youll be plunging into the depths With the knowledge that in a few minutes your going to die.

No matter what you do, unless your unafraid of death youll NEVER be ready to command a sub.

[rein1705]

And yet people like me and you and mostly everyone else that shares this forum did just those things. They weren't superhuman just men. men with duty's and fear and anger and commitment. Men that trained and knew there jobs and the risks. Men that boarded S-boats knowing that every dive could be there last or that at any minute a plane could appear from nowhere and end it all yet they strove on and became the people that we admire so and write these things about. Because there friends were bombed at pearl and there family's over seas were in danger and the world was at war and they did what they could to return the favor.
They were Sailors they were Navy men and they did there duty.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

no. all these are complete understatements. TOTAL understatements.

First, the question was on qualifications, not the life itself.

Second, you sound like you're lecturing everyone as if you had been there. Have you been there? If not, then everything you wrote in this post is nothing but hot air.

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

no. all these are complete understatements. TOTAL understatements.

Theres no "oops i rammed into an island i didnt see, time to reload". theres no "one hole isnt gonna do THAT much damage". that depends. a serious size hole is a death warrant. a kind of small hole isnt. as long as the pressure hull stays intact and it only breached that little space that they have to allow water to pass freely inbetween the hull and outer hull."

theres no TC. its hours upon hours of the same damn noise, rocking, and boredom (mostly). its crap food, cramped spaces, and no F-ing around. you mess up their boat and youll be put out of the job (if you take unnecessary risks). You have to be dominate, and instill respect, hope, and a little fear into your subordinates for them to blindly follow you into the depths of hell. Your equipment OFTEN breaks down, you dont know where the hell you are exactly for about 12 hours everyday.

Theres just about no captain alive who knows what every dam valve or knob does on his ship unless its a sailboat. Ever gone into the queen mary or Midway's engine rooms. at first glance you think its Dr seusse's Worst nightmare. Theres so many valves and pipes that it doesnt even seem real. Its just about endless black if you look down from a catwalk. its gritty dirty and downright scary. On a sub, its a little different. a captain COULD possibly learn every valve and knob. And then theres the Depth Charges.
Oh man. you cant imagine how terrifying those can be. If your running at about 90 meters (if your boat can handle it), and a depth charge blew a hole in your pressure hull. Guess what. Youd be INCINERATED. its unimaginable. Literally one second you could be alive and IN THAT SAME SECOND you could become INCINERATED. Just like that. Or maybe it sparks a fire which in turn burn a main gas line or something flammable and Your entire sub is going bye Bye.

Or maybe a plane comes outta nowhere and drops a 1000 LB bomb just like that. Or maybe your Dive planes fail and/or your ballast tanks fail. youll be plunging into the depths With the knowledge that in a few minutes your going to die.

No matter what you do, unless your unafraid of death youll NEVER be ready to command a sub.

Ever thought about teaching a course in English grammar?

[nappy]

I know who you are.. muahaha

nappy-still-hanging-around-at-off-topics

Originally Posted by tater

As a kid, my area of interest was WW2 aircraft, not subs. I read every book I could get my hands on, and loved them—but until I became competent in games like WarBirds, I had never really "gotten" the gist of it..

[Fish40]

@ I'm Going Down: What's so rediculous about this post? Where did I say to jump back in time and command a Fleet boat? I never said do we have what it takes to be Captn. James T. Kirk Mabey I should have made myself clear. Putting ourselves in the positions of Radar/Sonar operator and WO, could we accurately collect data for a successful attack?

[tater]

The real skippers and crew were just guys like us—only they had training. Does a simulator like SH4 contain anything that is coincident with that RL training? Sure. Assuming you use high realism settings you learn the trig required to make an attack. You also gain something that WW2 training lacked—a visualization of many engagements.

So from a practical standpoint, you gain a fundamental understanding of the torpedo fire control problem, and how to solve it. In addition you gain some insight into tactics for "fighting the boat."

What we lack are all the other aspects of training—which are myriad.

Knowing the limitations of the game simulation, a fair question might be; "assuming an Sh4 player had basic USN sub school training, would his hours of SH4 play make him more effective tactically than he would be otherwise?"

The answer? "Quite possibly."

[Zoomer96]

Personally, with training and experience I believe I could perform any duties and man any station on a submarine and become qualified. However, I question whether I would be able to fit the psychological profile required of staying down in a tight area with contact with the same guys day in day out. I need a little variety and being able to go home after work! The Navy weeds out men that may collapse under the strain. It takes a special Esprit de Corps to be a real submariner and I don't know if I have it or not. At my age it doesn't look like I'll find out! But I do respect the Men that were able to do it.

[Rockin Robbins]

Zoomer you hit the central question squarely on the head. Knowledge alone is not sufficient to make a submariner.

Still, we know more in general and have more interest in submarines than many of the boys plucked from farms in Kansas that were put into submarines, trained thoroughly and served amazingly well. The military knows how to make men ready. Many of us would do just fine.

[Capt. Teach]

Originally Posted by Fish40

I'm not poseing this question to the guys out there who have Naval experience, because you have an unfair advantage. Do you think with the knowlege we have from playing SH4 that we would actually be able to track and successfully attack a ship?

Wellllllll .... no. Being a former "ground pounder" [Ranger, US Army] which I am sure will bring scorn and ridicule upon my head [seeing as this is a naval sim zone] I cannot speak with any naval expertise. However, applying this to what I did do in the military ... my answer would definately have to be "Sorry partner, no way." What someone has learned in the game would probably qualify them just enough to understand the general gist of what was happening around them... not execute it.

Just for example take one important factor ... something we ground pounders know and have a saying for ... "If you can't find the enemy, you can't kill them." Navigation in SH4 is simple ... drop a waypoint and presto ... you go there ... doesn't work that way in RL. Land navigation [without using GPS] has a lot to it that is based more on experience and art form than just drop an azimuth and go. My guess is, that same concept applies to commanding a sub. Knowing how to set up to fire a shot ... and knowing how to press the button to fire .... those are the science or hard fact forms ... but it doesn't include the experience and art form of it which I suspect is a major portion of the success formula. Sub commanders were/are respected as elite and unique ... even amoungst themselves. No simulation would get you to the point where you could find, engage, and destroy the enemy in a real life situation. Consider, there are two types of simulation done in the military today ... first ... computer simulation ... this is the "first step" simulation ... sure ... it has its value and is recognized. However it is also recognized as not enough. Then there is the second simulation the "actual" real life simulation or wargame or exercise or maneuver ... call it what you will but after the computer simulation they go out and do it in "practice" and still get fails ... but the point is no computer sim is ever enough.

[Hitman]

The german and british navies used for their WW2 submarine officers an "attack teacher" machine, that is more or less a WW2 version of a game. Officers looked through a periscope and saw ship models placed on a surface and moving along. They issued orders and the assitants recorded their movements, plotting sub and enemy and the training officer told if they did it right or not. It was used to practice AOB and range estimation, as well as general approach tactics, and it served apparenty well for its purpose.

So I suppose that SH3/4 would indeed be a good trainer for SOME aspects of WW2 submarining, specifically attack tactics, situation awareness, ability to represent in your head the current tactical picture, etc.

But not much more than that.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Capt. Teach

Wellllllll .... no. Being a former "ground pounder" [Ranger, US Army] which I am sure will bring scorn and ridicule upon my head [seeing as this is a naval sim zone] I cannot speak with any naval expertise.

But we come from all walks of life here, and we all have stories to tell, even those who didn't serve at all. No scorn here, friend.

Also UnderseaLCPL is a friend, so I have to suck up to the dirt guys.

[vanjast]

Not a problem.. I can do that, but nobody will follow me , because no-one thinks like I do.

I spend countless hours working out a 'plan' and it's countless alternatives. When I'm in the sub 'I'm wired', and this goes on for the patrol duration.

The same for IL2, where I've spent a gazillion hours pushing the FW190 'beyond' limits.. pushing the boundaries....only to have many say I cannot do that...

But it's the same in either case - I want to live, and I make sure that I do.

edt: And as usual, you won't find me or others like me, making any significant difference in peacetime.
When the Sh1t hits the fan, that's when you'll 'see' us

[Ducimus]

Do We Really Have What It Takes?

No.