Pledge of Allegiance vs. Constitution?

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Most of the opposition to the pledge comes from people who don't want any mention of God made anywhere, or who are of the (quite justified) assumption that the term refers to a Judeo-Christian God.

First of all, I didn't read the two points you made, so if what I say next contradicts what you have stated in them, just everyone ignore my post. (I'm a "tad" drunk, so my attention span is pretty much zero)

But the quoted text was a flashing, big neon sign to me. What are you trying to say? Atheists aren't against the Judeo-Christian god, but against an higher power or deity. Which includes ALL gods.

You americans like to use the word "freedom", does it not apply also to the religion? The line in the PoA clearly contradicts (yeh, I've learned a new word, me>awesomeness) the freedom of believing whatever deity, object, slump of piss you want.

And I don't even get why it has to be there, I mean, let's get real, America isn't exactly the model student in the school of God. Yes, there are those who believe and then there's those who "believe" and change the rules that gets one to heaven when there's need to, wtf is that about? Is that not God's law? One can't just change it when it contradicts (Woot, that's a strike!) to something he/she want's to do but God says NO.

Of course, this happens all over the world, not just america, so don't take this as a attack on america or something like that (or I call you an douchenozzle [giggity giggity for those who remember that ]).

Right... I think that's all.. I go back to what I was doing.

PS. Damn, I think that's my all time longest post.

PPS. this has been bothering me, is it PPS or PSS. My brother uses PSS, but is it not PPS, as in post-post-scriptum or someting?

PPPS. If someone knows the girl in my sig, PM me, she is HOT!

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Dowly

First of all, I didn't read the two points you made, so if what I say next contradicts what you have stated in them, just everyone ignore my post. (I'm a "tad" drunk, so my attention span is pretty much zero)

Now I'm reading it for sure.

But the quoted text was a flashing, big neon sign to me. What are you trying to say? Atheists aren't against the Judeo-Christian god, but against an higher power or deity. Which includes ALL gods.

Yep, you missed a bit. NP, though.

You americans like to use the word "freedom", does it not apply also to the religion? The line in the PoA clearly contradicts (yeh, I've learned a new word, me>awesomeness) the freedom of believing whatever deity, object, slump of piss you want.

I have to disagree with one point. Americans don't like the word freedom, they love it. Much of our cultural identity is based upon it.
Other than that, I completely agree that you>awesomeness.

As far as the rest of your post goes, many of us agree to some extent.

Of course, this happens all over the world, not just america, so don't take this as a attack on america or something like that (or I call you an douchenozzle [giggity giggity for those who remember that ]).

America invented giggity-giggity.

PPS. this has been bothering me, is it PPS or PSS. My brother uses PSS, but is it not PPS, as in post-post-scriptum or someting?

It depends on the context. PS is Post-scriptum and PSS is post sub-scriptum. I'll explain it later.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

It depends on the context. PS is Post-scriptum and PSS is post sub-scriptum. I'll explain it later.

I thought PPS stood for Pistolet pulemjot Sudaeva?

Back OT: In high school we never had to say the pledge, we just had to stand and take off our hats. Even if we did we did not have to say the "Under God" part if we did not want to.

You are welcome. One of the ways how we improve ourselves is being questioned by others. On different (but related subject) you should take a look at this: http://usgovinfo.about.com/blinstst.htm

It is the list of questions required for U.S. citizenship test. It might be little bit outdated but it will give you an idea. I believe that majority of U.S. citizens would flunk the test. My g/f (smart and born and raised American) didn't know the answers to approx 1/3 of the questions.

Intresting. I got about 90 of them right.

46. Which countries were our enemies during World War II?
Germany, Italy, and Japan

I would mark this as an Incomplete answer...

78. What kind of government does the United States have?
Democracy

I thought we were a republic?

87. What is the most important right granted to U.S. citizens?
The right to vote

Isn't that more of a question of a opinion? Wouldn't someone from a country where they religion is suppressed perhaps think our freedom of region is more important?

[conus00]

46. Which countries were our enemies during World War II?
Germany, Italy, and Japan
I would mark this as an Incomplete answer...

It is incomplete, but I think they meant Axis powers in general


78. What kind of government does the United States have?
Democracy
I thought we were a republic?

So did I...

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by conus00

78. What kind of government does the United States have?
Democracy
I thought we were a republic?

So did I...

I always thought it was a constitutional republic with a bicameral legislature and indirect democracy.

[CaptainHaplo]

The pledge is not unconstitutional. God as used is not a specified deity, and thus does not violate the establishment of any religion. To some, the "God" in the pledge may be a judeao-xtian one, to others it may be the spagetti monster. To an athiest, "God" may be a non existent entity - so in that case they are saying "under a being that doesn't exist" - which conforms to their belief - so why should they have a problem with that?

There is a difference between the recognition of a myriad of beliefs and a note to that in the pledge, vs the establishment of a set governmental religion.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

The pledge is not unconstitutional. God as used is not a specified deity, and thus does not violate the establishment of any religion. To some, the "God" in the pledge may be a judeao-xtian one, to others it may be the spagetti monster. To an athiest, "God" may be a non existent entity - so in that case they are saying "under a being that doesn't exist" - which conforms to their belief - so why should they have a problem with that?

I am having a hard time believing that

Louis Bowman
The Daughters of the American Revolution
The Sons of the American Revolution
The Knights of Columbus
Holger Christian Langmack
Dr. George MacPherson Docherty of the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church

All intended the word god to represent all religions and not just the christian religion.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

God as used is not a specified deity, and thus does not violate the establishment of any religion. To some, the "God" in the pledge may be a judeao-xtian one, to others it may be the spagetti monster.

that simply is wrong. If god is written with a small "g", then it is liike you say, refering to the class of deities, gods and djinnis altogether. If it is written with capital "G", then it explicitly is refering to the christian context of that assumed entity. Think of it as a convention (that is not disputed at all), if you want.

That'S why I use small and capital Gs carefully when using that word.

(Not that it matters at all. One god is not less worse than any other ).

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by conus00

78. What kind of government does the United States have?
Democracy
I thought we were a republic?

So did I...

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I always thought it was a constitutional republic with a bicameral legislature and indirect democracy.

WOMAN: I thought we were an autonomous
collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship.
A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--
ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives
in that castle?
WOMAN: No one live there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take
it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified
at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
ARTHUR: I am your king!
WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.
ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.
WOMAN: Well, 'ow did you become king then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,
[angels sing]
her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur
from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I,
Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power
just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just
because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd
put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!

Can't go wrong with the classics

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Can't go wrong with the classics

I love that bit.

[Skybird]

I did the test without preparing for it, and except answers on present, contemporary names (I do not know all senators of states by name) that I could not know from here - why should I - I got it right. But:

that test is hilarious. It is even more stupid than the German integration test for foreign migrants that was introduced some time ago over here. And like then german test it fails its purpose because beside answers for questions on colours and numbers of stars it is all too easy to guess what answer they want to hear. and I would not even agree on all answers being correct. It has no educational and also no identificational value, therefore.

Or maybe the test is not to be called dumb, but incredibly naive.

[Sailor Steve]

I missed four of them. But the test itself gets some wrong. Yes, it's poorly written as well as being stupid.

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by conus00

Pledge of Allegiance vs. Constitution?

Constitution in a 12 round decision.

The Pledge: extracting loyalty oaths from six year-olds since 1892. I had to recite it every damn school day for 12 years.

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

1) It is not a criminal act to refuse to recite the pledge...

By that reasoning, school-led prayer should be constitutional, because there's no legal requirement to partake in it. But it is unconstitutional, because it boils down to the government promoting religion, regardless of the presence or lack of any requirements to partake in the prayer. Likewise, the Pledge is unconstitutional.

nor is the pledge mandated anywhere outside some very specific state laws.

What happened to the Equal Protection Clause?

you are pledging allegiance to a nation that is under God.

So it's ok to force kids to state that there is a god, and that their own country exists under it? Wouldn't you (rightly) have a problem with the phrase "...one nation, unfettered by all imaginary gods..."?

In these cases, people aren't so much against the pledge itself as they are against supporting what they see as a meme to propagate beliefs they oppose.

Or they'd just like to see the states obey the law of the land for once. I don't think that's a lot to ask.

When the balance of the Supreme Court swings back, maybe laws requiring the current Pledge will finally be struck down.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

Constitution in a 12 round decision.

Hehehe. I was thinking something like that every time I read the title, but decided not to use it. My line was 'Pledge of Allegiance by 3.'

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

So it's ok to force kids to state that there is a god, and that their own country exists under it? Wouldn't you (rightly) have a problem with the phrase "...one nation, unfettered by all imaginary gods..."?

Very well said!

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

There is a difference between the recognition of a myriad of beliefs and a note to that in the pledge, vs the establishment of a set governmental religion.

President Eisenhower disagrees. When he signed it into law he said "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty."[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critici..._of_Allegiance

The "under God" part was added at the exact time that "Godless Communist" was the favored epithet of those most concerned with the Cold War. If that isn't obvious, the fact that "God" is capitalized in the official version should be.