In A Pickle

gollum65 · 08-05-10, 06:19 PM

After thinking about it some more I remembered where I read that ships that are pinging aren't listening. It's from the TMO manual .pdf document, page 46, the first section under "Understanding the AI & Evasion".

Quote:

The Tin can itself as it applies to detection:
That wily Jap tin can loitering above your head can only do one of two things. It can listen (passive), and it can ping (active). What it can't do, is both at once. Hence I feel its a safe assumption to say, if a Tin can is pinging, hes not listening, and if hes not pinging he's listening.

Two important note's here to eliminate confusion:
A.) with multiple escorts on you, there is always somebody listening.
B.) The AI tends to key in on whichever sensor is receiving the biggest signature there is to pick up on.
While it can only use passive or active at a singular moment in time, it can switch between the two
quickly enough to make it appear that it is using both at once.

Perhaps I read it wrong?

razark · 08-05-10, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gollum65

After thinking about it some more I remembered where I read that ships that are pinging aren't listening. It's from the TMO manual .pdf document, page 46, the first section under "Understanding the AI & Evasion".

I knew I saw that somewhere, I just couldn't remember.

Ducimus · 08-05-10, 06:48 PM

There's always two ways to look at things like that.

a.) How it works in real life.
and
b.) How it really works in game.

I tend to focus on B when writing tutorials, tips or what not.

gollum65 · 08-05-10, 08:27 PM

I'm just going to call it what it is: sheer luck. After about 2 hours of cat and mouse I was able to make it to deep water and get away. As it turns out those destroyers were part of a whole convoy and it took me most of the night to get to safe water so I could reload my torpedo tubes but at least I made it.

Thanks for all the tips guys. Couldn't have done it without you guys.

TabbyHunter · 08-05-10, 08:57 PM

Assumeing you have stern torpedo tubes...Hit flank, paricsope depth, Zero gyro on a stern torp, and pray you dont miss.

WernherVonTrapp · 08-05-10, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gollum65

I'm just going to call it what it is: sheer luck. After about 2 hours of cat and mouse I was able to make it to deep water and get away. As it turns out those destroyers were part of a whole convoy and it took me most of the night to get to safe water so I could reload my torpedo tubes but at least I made it.

Thanks for all the tips guys. Couldn't have done it without you guys.

Way to go, gollum65!

Tough situation but, you came through, shining like gold. Somehow, I had a feeling you would pull through.

sergei · 08-06-10, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gollum65

I'm just going to call it what it is: sheer luck. After about 2 hours of cat and mouse I was able to make it to deep water and get away.

Glad you made it.

What you have just done is gain valuable combat experience.

Diopos · 08-06-10, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

There's always two ways to look at things like that.

a.) How it works in real life.
and
b.) How it really works in game.

I tend to focus on B when writing tutorials, tips or what not.

Your focus is correct.

Since you have already walked "the wild side" of the game (

) let me ask a question. If a lone DD pings (ingame), isn't it listening too (via the "swing" mechanic between active and passive status you describe in the manual)? What I am actually asking is that, regardless of how the game-code handles it, in game-play terms isn't the lone DD atempting to behave as pinging and listening simulteneously?

gollum65 · 08-06-10, 09:08 AM

I'm by no means even close to an expert. But I've watched my share of sub specials on the military channel and everywhere else (a few sub specials this week on the military channels btw). To me it's about the definition of the word we're using "listening". The way I always understood sonar was that the active pinging was basically no more then a range finding device. They send out a ping then "listen" to see how quickly it bounces back and that tells them how far the object is. While passive sonar is used to "listen" for distinct sounds the vessel makes (screws, water passing over the hull, metallic noises, etc...).

Diopos · 08-06-10, 10:49 AM

Nope. It is both a "sensing" and a range estimating apparatus. You can reveal a "silent running" sub with active sonar while you may have missed it on passive sonar.

timmyg00 · 08-06-10, 01:36 PM

IRL If the active rangefinding portion of the sonar is being operated, it would probably be best if the operator was not actually listening to the passive receiver, lest his ears be blasted by the ping. In fact, there may be an interlock that “blanks” the passive hydrophone receiver section while active sonar is being operated, to keep the operator’s ears, or the receiver itself, from being damaged.

SO yes, the capability possibly exists to try to listen passively while pinging, but it might not be a very wise thing to do.

TG

Ducimus · 08-06-10, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diopos

regardless of how the game-code handles it, in game-play terms isn't the lone DD atempting to behave as pinging and listening simulteneously?

It tries, but it has its moment's where it fails miserably. The "one sensor at a time" mechanic also applies to YOUR sensor's. Next time your doing a submerged periscope attack, keep the scope down, and enjoy the passive sonar as reported by your AI crewman or map contacts. Then raise the scope when your targets in visual range, and watch the sonar contacts disappear. With the scope still up, ask your sonarman to follow the nearest contact and see what happens.

razark · 08-06-10, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

With the scope still up, ask your sonarman to follow the nearest contact and see what happens.

That part annoys me. I lower the scope, get the sonar following the nearest contact, then up the scope.

Diopos · 08-06-10, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

It tries, but it has its moment's where it fails miserably. The "one sensor at a time" mechanic also applies to YOUR sensor's. Next time your doing a submerged periscope attack, keep the scope down, and enjoy the passive sonar as reported by your AI crewman or map contacts. Then raise the scope when your targets in visual range, and watch the sonar contacts disappear. With the scope still up, ask your sonarman to follow the nearest contact and see what happens.

He, he. The extent of "shortcuts" the devs used in the game engine is unbelievable, isn't it? For me the "apocalypsis" was when I realized the fact that the map scale does not take into account latitude. "Flatland" anyone?

.

Ducimus · 08-06-10, 05:42 PM

Game world is about 25% larger then in real life due to that flat map.

For fun, go here:
http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-go...calculator.htm

and try making a plot from say.. pearl harbor to the bungo straights, and then do the same in game, and note the distance variation.

08-06-10, 10:49 AM	#10
Diopos Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Athens, the original one. Posts: 1,226 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Nope. It is both a "sensing" and a range estimating apparatus. You can reveal a "silent running" sub with active sonar while you may have missed it on passive sonar. __________________ - Oh God! They're all over the place! CRASH DIVE!!! - Ehm... we can't honey. We're in the car right now. - What?... er right... Doesn't matter! We'll give it a try anyway!

08-06-10, 01:36 PM	#11
timmyg00 中国水兵 Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts, USA Posts: 282 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	IRL If the active rangefinding portion of the sonar is being operated, it would probably be best if the operator was not actually listening to the passive receiver, lest his ears be blasted by the ping. In fact, there may be an interlock that “blanks” the passive hydrophone receiver section while active sonar is being operated, to keep the operator’s ears, or the receiver itself, from being damaged. SO yes, the capability possibly exists to try to listen passively while pinging, but it might not be a very wise thing to do. TG __________________ ET1/SS, SSN-760 USSVI Marblehead Base (MA) *Naval Historical Sites - Photo Galleries*

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08-05-10, 06:48 PM	#3
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	There's always two ways to look at things like that. a.) How it works in real life. and b.) How it really works in game. I tend to focus on B when writing tutorials, tips or what not.

08-05-10, 08:27 PM	#4
gollum65 Seaman Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 37 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I'm just going to call it what it is: sheer luck. After about 2 hours of cat and mouse I was able to make it to deep water and get away. As it turns out those destroyers were part of a whole convoy and it took me most of the night to get to safe water so I could reload my torpedo tubes but at least I made it. Thanks for all the tips guys. Couldn't have done it without you guys.

08-05-10, 08:57 PM	#5
TabbyHunter Ensign Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pandora. Not the blue cat people Pandora... Posts: 227 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	Assumeing you have stern torpedo tubes...Hit flank, paricsope depth, Zero gyro on a stern torp, and pray you dont miss.

08-06-10, 09:08 AM	#9
gollum65 Seaman Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 37 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I'm by no means even close to an expert. But I've watched my share of sub specials on the military channel and everywhere else (a few sub specials this week on the military channels btw). To me it's about the definition of the word we're using "listening". The way I always understood sonar was that the active pinging was basically no more then a range finding device. They send out a ping then "listen" to see how quickly it bounces back and that tells them how far the object is. While passive sonar is used to "listen" for distinct sounds the vessel makes (screws, water passing over the hull, metallic noises, etc...).

08-06-10, 05:42 PM	#15
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Game world is about 25% larger then in real life due to that flat map. For fun, go here: http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-go...calculator.htm and try making a plot from say.. pearl harbor to the bungo straights, and then do the same in game, and note the distance variation.