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[twblackeagle]

Ahoy fellow kaleun,

And how about your capitan's ranking?
As you proceed with GWX version of SH3 you'll enjoy acknowledgement of your future successes by being assigned higher rankings. For example, our crew just completed mission 19 upon our return to Bergen Norway in a XXI. My rank was changed at that time to: Oberleutant Zur See, which if I'm not mistaken would see me (in theory) in command at uboat flotilla level.

I'm not rock-solid on the signifigance of this rank - so if anyone who may be reading this would like to comment please do!

Good hunting!

OB zs

Originally Posted by ijnfleetadmiral

First off, I absolutely LOVE this game!

Anyone know why you can't promote Seamen to Warrant Officers and Warrant Officers to Officers? My sonar operator is the highest-ranking enlisted person on my boat (he was promoted Chief Sr. Warrant Officer before any other Warrant Officer), and I've wanted to make him an officer for quite awhile now. I've awarded him nearly every medal (the only ones he doesn't have are the Wound Badge and the Knight's Cross; I just awarded him the German Cross in Gold after our last patrol), and I think he's quite deserving of officer rank.

What's the highest officer rank in the game? Wikipedia says 'Lieutenant Sr.', but I'm curious if anyone else has managed to reach higher.

TIA for any info!

-Matt

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by twblackeagle

Ahoy fellow kaleun,

And how about your capitan's ranking?
As you proceed with GWX version of SH3 you'll enjoy acknowledgement of your future successes by being assigned higher rankings. For example, our crew just completed mission 19 upon our return to Bergen Norway in a XXI. My rank was changed at that time to: Oberleutant Zur See, which if I'm not mistaken would see me (in theory) in command at uboat flotilla level.

I'm not rock-solid on the signifigance of this rank - so if anyone who may be reading this would like to comment please do!

Good hunting!

OB zs

Officer ranks in the Kriegsmarine (and their rough equivalents) were as follows:

Fähnrich zur See - Midshipman
Oberfähnrich zur See - Sub-Lieutenant
Leutnant zur See - Lieutenant (Junior)
Oberleutnant zur See - Lieutenant (Senior)
Kapitänleutnant - Lieutenant-Commander
Korvettenkapitän - Commander
Fregattenkapitän - Captain (Junior)
Kapitän zur See - Captain
Kommodore - Commodore
Konteradmiral - Rear-Admiral
Vizeadmiral - Vice-Admiral
Admiral - Admiral
Generaladmiral - no equivalent
Grossadmiral - Admiral of the Fleet

From what I've read, Oberleutnant was usually the lowest rank at which an officer had command of a combat u-boat - altho this may have changed as the war went on and the available officers' ranks were being thinned out both by transfer of more experienced men to shore duty as well as heavy combat losses in the ubootwaffe overall.

The most commonly held rank for a commander in actual combat seems to have been Kapitänleutnant; promotion above this rank often resulted in transfer to shore duty, either as a staff officer, flotilla commander, or instructor back at one of the training facilities. Some officers stayed in or returned to command of a frontboot after being promoted past this rank but it seems to have been a relatively rare occurrence.

Altho an Oberleutnant might be assigned to shore duty of some kind, I doubt that he would placed in command of a flotilla at that rank, especially given the fact there would probably be other u-boat commanders in that same flotilla who would have more experience and already outrank him if and when the position needed to be filled.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

Officer ranks in the Kriegsmarine (and their rough equivalents) were as follows:

Fähnrich zur See - Midshipman
Oberfähnrich zur See - Sub-Lieutenant
Leutnant zur See - Lieutenant (Junior)
Oberleutnant zur See - Lieutenant (Senior)
Kapitänleutnant - Lieutenant-Commander
Korvettenkapitän - Commander
Fregattenkapitän - Captain (Junior)
Kapitän zur See - Captain
Kommodore - Commodore
Konteradmiral - Rear-Admiral
Vizeadmiral - Vice-Admiral
Admiral - Admiral
Generaladmiral - no equivalent
Grossadmiral - Admiral of the Fleet

From what I've read, Oberleutnant was usually the lowest rank at which an officer had command of a combat u-boat - altho this may have changed as the war went on and the available officers' ranks were being thinned out both by transfer of more experienced men to shore duty as well as heavy combat losses in the ubootwaffe overall.

The most commonly held rank for a commander in actual combat seems to have been Kapitänleutnant; promotion above this rank often resulted in transfer to shore duty, either as a staff officer, flotilla commander, or instructor back at one of the training facilities. Some officers stayed in or returned to command of a frontboot after being promoted past this rank but it seems to have been a relatively rare occurrence.

Altho an Oberleutnant might be assigned to shore duty of some kind, I doubt that he would placed in command of a flotilla at that rank, especially given the fact there would probably be other u-boat commanders in that same flotilla who would have more experience and already outrank him if and when the position needed to be filled.

Except really for the first two years and change of the war when rank and operations worked like they were suppposed to the kriegsmarine had the lowest amount of officers of any service. Unlike the US where they could afford to have 2 and 3 star admirals commanding single ships, the Kriegsmarine couldn't muster up enough admirals in the whole branch to equal what we had just out at sea (mostly as flat top captains). In contrast to the kriegsmarine, most allied sub commanders started as either majors or lt. commanders (equivalent to Korvettenkapitän or Fregattenkapitän). Don't think there were any admirals that remained at sea in command of their own submarines, the highest being captains (Kapitän zur See). Though a few Kapitän zur See did remain at see in command of their own boats, you can count them on one hand!

Imagine if Kaleuns like Prien or Kretschmer took on positions as Flotille commanders or kommandant/senior trainers at u-boat schools the u-boat service might have been able to retain more of its initial higher level of proficiency when sending out new boats to sea. While no single action could have prevented the outcome, had each gross mistake been corrected it might have made things more interesting and reduced the fatality rate down from 75% to something at least humane, at that rate I think Kamikaze's actually inflicted more overall damage (despite the effort overall being a failure), it did inflict fear into the surface ship crews and usually cause moderate to major damage when a plane was successful.

At the least, it would have made the allies uneasy knowing that such great men were still alive and teaching/passing on their knowledge to new and existing officers might have shifted their priorities - to expend more resources bombing the u-boot pens and schools than using 100% of them to hunting u-boots instead. Just as the German wehrmact was scarred to death of Patton, the navies could have been equally freightened of Kretchsmer, Prien or Topp planning, organizing and sending out wolf packs that would've stood a much better chance at success.

In any other branch field grade officers became almost like flag rank status in the kriegsmarine - you had Korvettenkapitän's as Flotille commanders! That's the same as putting a Major from the allied forces in charge of a major base like Pearl Harbor or Gibraltor! In most cases it seemed that getting promoted to Korvettenkapitän was like a death sentence, with only a handfull of them actually surviving to either take a command on land or surive to the end of the war.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by twblackeagle

For example, our crew just completed mission 19 upon our return to Bergen Norway in a XXI. My rank was changed at that time to: Oberleutant Zur See, which if I'm not mistaken would see me (in theory) in command at uboat flotilla level.

GWX will promote you to Oberleutnant after your very first patrol.

As Frau Kaleun said, Oberleutnant z.S. was very junior for a u-boat commander, not senior. "Herr Kaleun" heard often in Das Boot, was the most common rank for that position, Kapitänleutnant z.S. A senior commander might be a Korvettenkapitän, and above that would almost certainly be assigned a command position (or transferred to command of a major surface warship).

Also in Das Boot you might pick up on the fact that both the LI (Chief Engineer) and 1WO (Exectutive Officer) were commonly addressed as "Herr Oberleutnant".

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Also in Das Boot you might pick up on the fact that both the LI (Chief Engineer) and 1WO (Exectutive Officer) were commonly addressed as "Herr Oberleutnant".

Altho for the sake of clarification and to satisfy my pedantic nature, it should be noted that the LI was an engineering officer and as such would not be in line for a command regardless of his rank.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

Altho for the sake of clarification and to satisfy my pedantic nature, it should be noted that the LI was an engineering officer and as such would not be in line for a command regardless of his rank.

Very true. I was only considering the ranks themselves.

[K-61]

I find one of the most useful aspects of SH3 Commander to be the ability to assign qualifcations to seamen. I know they do not affect actual efficiency, but they are quite useful as "markers" so that I know which men go where. For example, I have two sets of engine personnel, so they swap out one for one at watch change. Same with control room personnel, and so on.

I also enable realistic career length. However, this does not mean I am not exposed to the progression of the war. As a captain gets retired, I start a new career at the same month where the previous career was killed or retired. I have not yet unretired a captain, but that is something I may consider.

Medals? They don't mean much to my crewmen, so long as their captain gets his itchy neck scratched. I find the usage of medals to fight fatigue to be a hokey feature. I use the GWX fatigue model; by having two men for each job that managing fatigue is almost nonexistent for me. The trickier job is dealing with that fifth officer, for which I admit that a medal substitutes for his missing bunk. Out of curiousity, since I don't have the game, how does SH5 deal with crew issues?

[sergei]

Originally Posted by K-61

Out of curiousity, since I don't have the game, how does SH5 deal with crew issues?

Not very well I'm afraid.
The crew management screen only allows you access to your officers and key personnel.
And the cook.
As far as the game is concerned, the rest of the crew don't exist.
On a related note, I don't think any of them can get killed, since the game needs them for dialogue interactions.

As the patrol progresses, morale goes down, rising again when you sink ships.
OK, I can get with that.
But it's poorly implemented.

If morale goes down too far, the crew just flat out refuse to do their jobs.
If I'm in a combat situation and order the deck gun to be manned, and they just look at me and say "Cannot comply", then I'm going to be pulling my Luger out to offer encouragement.
The game does not let me do this unfortunately.

IMO the crew should always follow an order, but maybe be better at doing their job if morale is high.

You get points to spend on your officers as you sink more ships (think renown).
Some of the abilities you can give your officers make sense eg. allowing your Watch Officer to spot ships a little bit further away.
But some are just appallingly bad.
Making the torpedoes go faster?
With a warhead that does 25% more damage?
I don't think so.
(By the way - a bug related to the 'Go Faster' eels, is that after you have picked this, the TDC does not compensate for the increased speed, so you are now incapable of hitting anything!)

Having said all this, I must sound like I am painting a pretty gloomy picture.
Remember, I am describing the stock game here.

There are already mods available that deal with the morale problem, and rework the Officers Abilities to be more realistic, reflecting increased training and proficiency at their jobs, rather than Magic Powers.

You know it's funny - despite the fact that most of the crew in SH3 are just little icons on a screen, rather than fully rendered in a 3d environment, I always managed to feel a much greater attachment to them then I ever managed in SH5.
I guess that fact tells you all you really need to know about the difference.

[K-61]

Wow, sounds like they did a real job on SH5. To think! They had all that work done by the modding community and ignored almost all of it. My cash is staying in my pocket.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by sergei

There are already mods available that deal with the morale problem, and rework the Officers Abilities to be more realistic, reflecting increased training and proficiency at their jobs, rather than Magic Powers.

Do any of these mods address the helmsmen qualification, i.e. actually making it of any use? I've seen the mod that allows you to actually do navigation yourself using an astrolabe and star charts, but nothing so far that requires the navigator to have the skill to actually do the job (something which would've been impossible for anyone else in the crew just to pick up on unless previously trained, an u-boat at sea that had their navigator die would've been likely to perish being unable to figure out how to get home or even find land if they were in the middle of the Atlantic). Or does the game assume that since the captain would've been required to know how to do it also that in the event the navigator died he'd be able to take his place?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by K-61

I find one of the most useful aspects of SH3 Commander to be the ability to assign qualifcations to seamen. I know they do not affect actual efficiency, but they are quite useful as "markers" so that I know which men go where. For example, I have two sets of engine personnel, so they swap out one for one at watch change. Same with control room personnel, and so on.

Excellent! Something in all this time I never actually thought of. I was only a seaman, but I was a radioman in training and the one time they needed someone on the key I was the only one who still knew enough morse to be useful, being fresh out of RM school.

I think I will start assigning divisions to my regular enlisted, for the very reason you gave. Thanks for the hint!

I also enable realistic career length. However, this does not mean I am not exposed to the progression of the war. As a captain gets retired, I start a new career at the same month where the previous career was killed or retired. I have not yet unretired a captain, but that is something I may consider.

Thanks to my experience years ago with SH1, I have simultaneous careers, one from each command. When one dies or retires I do exactly the same - start a new career from that command at the beginning of the same month.

Medals? They don't mean much to my crewmen, so long as their captain gets his itchy neck scratched. I find the usage of medals to fight fatigue to be a hokey feature. I use the GWX fatigue model; by having two men for each job that managing fatigue is almost nonexistent for me. The trickier job is dealing with that fifth officer, for which I admit that a medal substitutes for his missing bunk.

I keep a running log in a notebook, and only award medals to men I feel truly deserve them. Of course everybody gets the U-boat Badge after his second patrol, but the rest only go to the deserving.