Muhammad's ball, or: what Islam has done to the French National Team

Be careful, you "Muslim" - I have been in Muslim places where they would chase you away and even would want to kill you for heretic statements like that. In accordance with the quran they would

Sounds like the sort of people with the same circular logic as Sky uses, all muslims are fundamentalist nuts, if they ain't fundamentalist nuts they ain't muslim as all muslims are fundamentalist nuts.
But isn't it the case that the koran says bugger all about that and what sky is talking about there is one theological schools interpretation of a document that was written several centuries later. Not of course suggesting that there are different theological schools as there is only one islam and it is and always has been the fundamentlist nutty kind, even when it didn't exist.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Sounds like the sort of people with the same circular logic as Sky uses, all muslims are fundamentalist nuts, if they ain't fundamentalist nuts they ain't muslim as all muslims are fundamentalist nuts.
But isn't it the case that the koran says bugger all about that and what sky is talking about there is one theological schools interpretation of a document that was written several centuries later. Not of course suggesting that there are different theological schools as there is only one islam and it is and always has been the fundamentlist nutty kind, even when it didn't exist.

Sects of a religion are "fundamentalist" if they are literalists.

Did the world take 7 days to make? Were Adam and Eve real? Is the book true, 100% (even if you have to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "LA LALALLALA" when someone reads internally inconsistent passages)? Do they believe in "creationism?"

What sects of Islam are NOT fundamentalist, and how many are in that sect out of the 1.2 billion worldwide?

Sects of a religion are "fundamentalist" if they are literalists.

So you just mean those who came from the Salafi school who have gone one step further.
Though even that doesn't work as if they were true literalists they would be getting stuck with the contradictory passages.
So they are not literalists just selective literalists which is why they are fundamentalists as they believe in the fundamentals only as interpreted by themselves.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

So you just mean those who came from the Salafi school who have gone one step further.
Though even that doesn't work as if they were true literalists they would be getting stuck with the contradictory passages.
So they are not literalists just selective literalists which is why they are fundamentalists as they believe in the fundamentals only as interpreted by themselves.

I mean that if you think the world was created as in genesis, you are a fundy, period. If you think that the koran is accurate? Fundy.

A non-fundy will admit that their book is "just so" stories. Not literally true, but useful for a moral.

What islamic sects specifically state that the koran is not literally true, just useful stories?

What islamic sects specifically state that the koran is not literally true, just useful stories?

I see where your problem is.
What is the koran Tater?

[Skybird]

Good point, Tater, which I also make time and again: Islam is fundamentalist by definition. If it is not fundamentalist - or as you say: not literalist - then it cannot be Islamic in the Quran's meaning. that is no circular logic by me when claiming that - it simply is an adequate description of the nature of this ideology.

I could as well be accused of "circular logic" when saying that Nazism is racist, and when denying their are more liberal, more democratic forms of Nazism. Nazism is by nature and definition racist - always, else it is not Nazism. A Nazi indeed refusing the racist component in it, is no real Nazi.

Muhammad used the hiding of a religion that he invented to make himself unavailable for criticism and quesitoning his leadership - by declaring such criticism a heresy that could cost the heretic his life. Muhammad's sermons are designed to acchieve maximum unit and support by his followers of his time, to make his army strong and not plagued by doubts or hesitations, and to intimidate everybody who could have meant a challenge to Muhammad'S claim for power. And for acchieving this outcome, this social effect, he did not need sensible reasoning and love for human kindness, but he enforced uniformity and totalitarian control. Only from this perspective it can be understood why the Quran is what it is, and is not any different. And only against this background the Quran can be "interpreted" correctly. leave the supoerstition behind, this is no book of metaphysical insight and divine revelation, but it is nothing else put a work of pure fiction of a single man that he opportunistically designed to support his powerpoltiical intentions.

Ron Hubbard, founder of the corporation of Scientology, 1400 years later: "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion." And: "I'd like to start a religion. That's where the money is."

Maybe for Muhammad, wealth and treasury also was a point, and maybe he started as a social reformer before he became known as a kahin, a seer. But in the end - he was about power, and women.

[Konovalov]

Can't we give this Islam that, Islam this stuff a rest once and a while. Life is hard enough at times let alone to have to visit here and come across countless threads by the same old people on this same old subject of Islam is evil, Muslims are taking over the planet, yada yada yada. I mean come on, is there nothing else happening in your lives like sims and most importantly sub sims?

I am not saying no discussion on the subject at all. I am simply asking for a little bit of variety and a little bit of self-moderation. All I see is just the same old tiresome flame war between the same old people. I'm getting on for near a decade of being a member of this forum but quite frankly it is a horrible place to be at times for the small minority of Muslims who are indeed members and do make meaningful contributions here.

And as for this topic it ain't hard to figure out. France were crap and living off past glories with a coach who said prior to the World Cup that he was leaving at the end of the tournament. The French football team was an accident waiting to happen. It has nothing to do with Islam. They were a rubbish team and simply not good enough just like my Australia and England.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I see where your problem is.
What is the koran Tater?

Why do you reflexively defend Islam? It's just as stupid as any other religion.

Qur'an, plus hadith.

The same standard for fundamentalism applies to Islam as Christianity. Biblical literalism in the latter (and the former for the shared bits), and koranis literalism for the latter.

Any belief that the haditha are literally true also plays into this.

What sects openly state that the Koran and hadith are just stories that don't even have to be true, just good moral teachings in fictional form?

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by MH

From my point of view it is impotent to have division between state and religion.

Dr. Freud anyone?
Fact is we don't have a true seperation of state and religion here, religion is mandatory taught in most states. Blasphemy laws are still there...

Originally Posted by tater

What sects of Islam are NOT fundamentalist, and how many are in that sect out of the 1.2 billion worldwide?

The Alevis are pretty laid-back people... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi
About 15%-30% of the Turkish population, but granted a minority worldwide.


As much as I dislike (political) Islam, you cannot say it's all the same.
What about Indonesia, where the government is pretty hard engaged into the fight agains fundamentalists, Pakistan also to a level?
What about Iraq, where Sunnis and Shiites kick the S. out of each other (and both fight against the Kurds)
What about Qatar, Bahrein, Kuwait, Dubai who treat their foreign workers from islamic countries like slaves?
What about the great Arabic states who care nothing about the Palestinians? As long as they are in poverty, they have a reason to blame the Jews. There are some of the richest countries in the world in the Middle East, with their money every Palestinian "refugee" could have a big house, huge piece of land and prime infrastructure, but no, they need their scapegoats...

This doesn't look like Islam is a homogeneous mass.