Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

Lying about WHAT?

Lots of things , but lets start with the last post you really dodged(apart from all those horrible legality ones).
That would be #616 which I asked you about in #617, which you followed with as a "response" a pile of entirely unrelated things which I again said were nothing to do with the falsehoods you were questioned about.

It really is very simple, please keep up to speed.
If you get stuck then just run through the makeup of your current coilition and see some of the fruitcakes and their sponsers,then I suppose you can look at any reasonable Israeli media outlet over the past decade or two and find a pletheora of reported incidents that show up the falseness of your statement.
That is the beauty of your attempt at propoganda, it is easily demolished using nothing but primary Israeli sources

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Lots of things , but lets start with the last post you really dodged(apart from all those horrible legality ones).
That would be #616 which I asked you about in #617, which you followed with as a "response" a pile of entirely unrelated things which I again said were nothing to do with the falsehoods you were questioned about.

It really is very simple, please keep up to speed.
If you get stuck then just run through the makeup of your current coilition and see some of the fruitcakes and their sponsers,then I suppose you can look at any reasonable Israeli media outlet over the past decade or two and find a pletheora of reported incidents that show up the falseness of your statement.
That is the beauty of your attempt at propoganda, it is easily demolished using nothing but primary Israeli sources

I'm not sure what you asking for but yes we have small minority fruitcakes sponsored by whoever...there are nut cases Jewish religious zealots.
Prime Minister Rabin was shot by one of them.
Still we are democratic society which don't preach toward hatred.
I live in Jerusalem i served with IDF and i don't hate Palestinians i WANT them to have THEIR state but not at all coast.
If removing all settlements would bring real peace and not more terror i'm ready to vote for it-but well this is unrealistic(for now?) and was already experimented with.
As you said you can learn anything about anything from Israeli sources because we are country of free speech and and opinions, not propaganda.-whats wrong with that?
Try to see Israeli news or debates you can sometimes hear stronger criticism than yours.

About that chain e-mail thing.
I don't care what it is but it goes along certain line of thought which is very close to my perception of whats going on here in Middle East.
Come on... you know and i know that tolerance is not strong point of Arabs and they are still emerging from dark ages.
Just see Syrian or even Egyptian TV(they are relatively progressive ones) or AL Jezira which feeds Arabs one sided crap.
Not even start talking about human rights in some of those countries if not all of them...

From Haaretz, by Gideon Levy.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...idity-1.292959

"Gaza flotilla drives Israel into a sea of stupidity

The Israeli propaganda machine has reached new highs its hopeless frenzy. It has distributed menus from Gaza restaurants, along with false information. It embarrassed itself by entering a futile public relations battle, which it might have been better off never starting. They want to maintain the ineffective, illegal and unethical siege on Gaza and not let the "peace flotilla" dock off the Gaza coast? There is nothing to explain, certainly not to a world that will never buy the web of explanations, lies and tactics. ..."

[MH]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

From Haaretz, by Gideon Levy.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...idity-1.292959

"Gaza flotilla drives Israel into a sea of stupidity

The Israeli propaganda machine has reached new highs its hopeless frenzy. It has distributed menus from Gaza restaurants, along with false information. It embarrassed itself by entering a futile public relations battle, which it might have been better off never starting. They want to maintain the ineffective, illegal and unethical siege on Gaza and not let the "peace flotilla" dock off the Gaza coast? There is nothing to explain, certainly not to a world that will never buy the web of explanations, lies and tactics. ..."

Oh well ....Gidon Levi.
He has his own opinion.
Its funny you quote Israeli Haaretz and talk about ISRAELI PROPAGANDA MACHINE at the same time.

[Skybird]

By character, I tend to be a passive, reacting man. But two things in my life taught me that this might not be a good way to adress conflicts one cannot avoid: chess (which I play since 38 years now, since my 5th year on this planet), and martial arts (which I have trained for short of 20 years, until some ten years ago). I believe in the principle of "acting is better than reacting" - although that sets up quite a challenge to my habits and my mind occassionally. By my nature, I feel more comfortable with not needing to act first in a conflict, but by reality I understand the advantage of doing so, and the disadvantage of allowing the opponent/enemy to go first.

With propaganda, it is the same. Every psychologist will confirm that it is the first statement that gets yelled out that will be remembered by people. What comes after that in corrections, evidence for the first claim being wrong, and attempts to counter it, is less likely to be cared for, or to be believed. That's why some old political lies live on and on even when meanwhile they have been proven to be lies. The Jenin "massacre" is one example, or the claims Bush made in order to excuse why he attacked Iraq.

This article is about why Israel must learn again why in the propaganda war acting is better than reacting. Not that the Israelis, and the Mossad, do not try some propaganda coups of their own. They do, no doubt, and sometimes they show great competence in doing so (and soemtimes they mess up badly). It's just that they allowed to be pushed into the defence, and just reacting to propaganda attacks of their enemies.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/vi...-defense-15459

The Problem With Playing Defense
by Noah Pollak

Given past performances, I'd say that Israel and its supporters are doing a better-than-average job of quickly beating back the international lynch mob that loves nothing more than propagating lies about Israel. The key weapon in this fight for truth has been of the IDF commandos descending onto the deck of the Mavi Marmara and into a hornet's nest of murderous "peace activists."

This kind of after-the-fact truth-telling is good as far as it goes, but it actually doesn't go very far: it is restricted to responding to lies, exaggerations, and accusations. Israel is on the receiving end of a viciously negative political campaign, and as any campaign strategist knows, you don't respond to a negative campaign by expending all your energy trying to explain why the lies aren't true -- you go negative and play offense in return.

What would it look like if the Israeli government played offense? First and foremost, this would require some serious criticism of the Islamist government of Turkey, which masterfully created this crisis and is now denouncing Israel for it. Turkey's thuggish prime minister certainly understands the benefits of being on offense. He says that Israel committed a "massacre" and is guilty of "state terrorism," "piracy," has struck "a blow to world peace and against international law," threatens that "if Israel does not immediately free all the detainees and wounded, the rift in relations with it will widen," and thunders that "Israel will not be able to show itself in the world until it apologizes for what happened and undergoes self-criticism."

Quite a performance! Wouldn't it be remarkable if the Israelis had gotten ahead of the story by making their own accusations and demands? Here are a few ideas of the kind of concrete action the Israelis could take -- if they had the stones to really take a stand.

1. Expel the Turkish ambassador and declare his return contingent on a full, credible, and public Turkish investigation of the terrorist organization that planned and funded the "aid flotilla."

2. Publicly demand reparations from Turkey for the costs of the operation, including the medical bills of the thugs and Jew-haters who have been given such lovely medical care in Israeli hospitals.

3. Demand a UN investigation of why Turkey is funding terrorist organizations that are involved in attacks on Israel.

4. Fund a Kurdish human-rights NGO in Israel -- there are lots of Kurdish Jews who I'm sure would be happy to help -- that raises awareness of the plight of Kurds in Turkey. (Short answer: they are treated horribly.) This organization must publicize the apartheid conditions of Kurdish life in Turkey and churn out op-eds, studies, videos, and press releases denouncing Turkey's brutal and racist treatment of its own minorities.

5. Fund a Turkish-language documentary on the Armenian genocide, upload it to YouTube, and promote it heavily in Turkey. If Erdogan wants to call Israel a criminal and a murderer, there's no reason why Israel shouldn't return the favor on this most sensitive of issues.

The model of hasbara, or public diplomacy, that Israel has employed for decades is premised on the persuasiveness of reason, evidence, context, truth, fairness, and apology. Anyone who has been following events in Israel over the past few years understands how profoundly this strategy has failed. For obvious historic reasons, many Jews have internalized the dangerous belief that the best way to respond to condemnation and lies is to show how unthreatening and willing to criticize and investigate themselves they are. The problem is that not only doesn't this work; it actually invites further attack by rewarding those who defame and incite against the Jewish state.

Israel's hasbara strategy must shift to one that is based on power, self-confidence, and an eagerness to vigorously condemn its defamers. This is the difference between driving the debate and reacting to it, refuting lies and validating them, offense and defense, setting the agenda versus being on the agenda. If the Israelis wish to see a good model for how to set the terms of a controversy, they need only look at the Turkish prime minister's brilliant performance this week.

[Bilge_Rat]

some more facts and news came out over the weekend.

The NY Times quotes a turkish doctor who was a passenger on the Mavi Marmara. He saw a small group of activists attack the soldiers as soon as they landed, stabbing them, beating them with wooden and metal poles and taking their weapons away. The "gunfire" from the helicopters appears to be rubber bullets shot to disperse the crowd. It's more and more clear that the IDF's version of what happened is the correct one.

The crack of an Israeli sound grenade and a hail of rubber bullets from above were supposed to disperse activists, but instead set them in motion. And when three Israeli commandos slid down ropes out of helicopters to take over the ship, a crowd set upon them.

“They ran at them without pause or hesitation,” Dr. Coskun recalled.

One soldier was stabbed and two were beaten. From that moment on, the attempted takeover turned into an armed assault, with angry Israeli commandos opening fire. Within an hour, the commandos had taken control of the ship, and nine Turks, including one who also had American citizenship, were dead.

On the morning of the raid, confusion ruled. The first soldiers who rappelled down the ropes appeared disoriented and frightened, Dr. Coskun, the Turkish witness, said, slipping a bit on the dewy deck and calling out in English, which Dr. Coskun said few Turks understood.

Of the two ropes that were dropped simultaneously from the helicopter, one was grabbed by men on board the boat and tied to an antenna, Israeli officials said. The pilot released it to avoid being tethered to the boat, and the commandos then slid down only one rope, slowing the incursion and leaving them vulnerable.

Some of the activists, hearing the pop of the plastic bullets and the sound bomb, believed they were being shot, according to witnesses, including some wounded now in an Ankara hospital.

It was a small group of aggressive activists on the upper deck who overwhelmed the first soldiers, wrenching away their weapons and, according to Dr. Coskun and video images supplied by the Israeli military, beating them with wooden poles and metal rods that they had ripped or sawed off the side of the boat.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/05/wo...ref=middleeast

The NY Times also reports on the takeover of the Rachel Corrie. The IDF learned its lessons since the takeover took place 23 miles offshore, in daylight (12:30 pm). More importantly, Ireland and Israel had come to an agreement on friday that the cargo would be unloaded and inspected at Ashdod, but the activists rejected this:

On Friday, the Israeli and Irish governments reached an agreement to unload the vessel’s cargo in Ashdod, in southern Israel, and transport it to Gaza, but the group sponsoring both this ship and the Turkish flotilla, the Free Gaza Movement, rejected the deal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/wo...ref=middleeast

Well then there should be no problem in having the UN do a full examination of what happened. Rubber bullits can still kill you, especially at close range, adds another piece of aggression from the IDF side.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

some more facts and news came out over the weekend.

The NY Times quotes a turkish doctor who was a passenger on the Mavi Marmara. He saw a small group of activists attack the soldiers as soon as they landed, stabbing them, beating them with wooden and metal poles and taking their weapons away. The "gunfire" from the helicopters appears to be rubber bullets shot to disperse the crowd. It's more and more clear that the IDF's version of what happened is the correct one.

Doesn't make them look too much better to me. The best that can be said about this is that it exonerates the soldiers involved, which leaves Israel government and military higher-ups who planned this ill-conceived action in the first place.

More importantly, Ireland and Israel had come to an agreement on friday that the cargo would be unloaded and inspected at Ashdod, but the activists rejected this:

Considering that any way you cut it, this defeats what they were trying to do, I'm not shocked.

Originally Posted by Skybird

In 2008, Henryk Broder was invited to deliver a speech on the issue of anti-semitism and anti-zionism to Domestic Affairs Committee of the German Bundestag. This speech I knew since long in it's German original, but today I found out that somebody has translated it into English some time ago, and so: here it is. I liked it very much the first time I've read about it, because it very much reflects the same reasons why I call call the global anti-Israeli mood a form of antisemtiism, too.

Good read.

[/I]

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/anti-se...inglepage=true

German version:
http://www.lizaswelt.net/2008/06/ant...emiten_16.html

I've read it - at the rate that article was going, you can't criticize a thing Israel does without being an anti-Semite.