Legality of torture

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by TBoone

Look my Grandfather Fought in Vietnam and he made Sergeant E6 in 2 years and is a good friend and mentore of mine He Believes the same as I do because I learned that from him. Oh and by the way if you think he was just one of those drugies who sat behind the lines. He was in the 101st Airborne Division 506th Paratroop Ifantry Regiment He was a Hero him and his men were the front line from Cambodia to the DMZ. And My Greatgrandfather drove General Patton around for 3 months in WW2 Normandy. I also happen to study history do you???

That still doesn't make the world black and white. Actually that explains nothing. Soldiers have all my genuine respect for seeing the hell that is war and for being put into positions noone would normally want to be in. But that doesn't make the world black and white. Soldiers are in fact "colourblind" on the job by training, because they have to be - this doesn't make them right, even if it makes their sacrifices something to be honourably respected.
But they are not someone to learn ethics from. They're not the ones who make decisions. In a democracy, it's civil people that have to make them, and civil people need to abide by civil norms of life and ideally make decisions in light of its complexity and ambiguity, and that's the way it must be - if normal, civil people in daily walks of life see the world in the same black and white that soldiers have to, then I fear this world will never see real freedom and democracy. Instead it will always choose to side with dictatorship, which is the army's natural way of working.

How do you "diagnose" a terrorist? Most of them don't walk around with "shoot me I'm a terrorist" sign on them. They don't wear their hatreds on their sleeve. And they mostly belong to "groups" that could hardly be called organized or ideologically unified, or with obvious signs of membership. So how do you know? What use is what you learned from history or your grandfather? Did your grandfather happen to have psychic powers that he taught you? Did Patton? I don't think so. It's possible to make informed, hard, necessary decisions about these things, but only by being critical and accepting the complexity and non-black-and-whiteness of the matter. Along with responsibility for grave mistakes, some of which are necessary.

Things are complicated. Soldiers have to have jobs done. YOUR job in civil life is not to blindly adapt their voluntary state of moral stupidity (i.e. unquestioning following of orders without a military would never, ever work), but to be a critical, thinking, deliberating person who sees things clearly and guide your government to make the right decisions for your troops, to not waste their lives, to make sure they don't needlessly waste lives of other people, and respect what they do and not use them for causes that are vain. To deliberate and act like a civilian when fighting a war is criminal, and to obey and follow like a soldier in civilian life is just as criminal for someone in a democratic state. So in that sense, your "qualifications" are moot - yes, soldiers have plenty to teach us about personal qualities and morals, but only if we are able to take their experience critically, not stupidly worshipping them. Soldiers obey and kill, period. Is that what you want to do all day?

And like others have said, it's always tricky. Personally, I don't believe torture or even some of these "high pressure" methods are justified or necessary. I think most people don't realize how easy it is to break an average person with something like torture - but the problem is that once you do break them, what are you really getting? Real information or confessions of a sniveling wreck who wants the pain to stop? The truth is that it's both. And making executive decisions without knowing which is which is almost as bad as making them based on no information at all. Being a prisoner under interrogation should never be a pleasant experience, but the cruelty beyond a certain point is senseless and goes against the values on which this democracy you fight for is built on.

As for US and "enemy combatants", I think it just needs to cut the charade and treat them like POWs. They're people too, and they're not any more dangerous than the average indoctrinated enemy soldier. This whole thing is not doing anyone any good, and makes everyone look bad - so cut the crap and give them due process. Show them what actual democracy and freedom is made of - if you believe in them, of course. Reading posts like this makes me wonder about it sometimes...

"Us vs. them" thinking is not freedom vs. evil. It IS the ultimate evil. It is a necessary evil in a firefight, or any situation of urgent danger. It's a blind, stupid, senseless evil pretty well everywhere else. Learn the difference. Think critically. Stop living in siege mentality while you have a choice. And boy there are plenty of humane, rational, non-violent choices to be made here before everything goes to hell. I respect your relatives - but you are not your relatives. You're not in Cambodia and you're not fighting with Patton in Normandy. Stop trying to pretend you are, before we all live in Cambodia with Patton every minute of our daily lives.

[TBoone]

Those were some pretty words that were actauly just some democratic propaganda but realy the U.S. was formed as a republic somthing good were people had rights and now its called a democracy but if you look at the history of democratic governments allot of them have turned into that thing you hate so much a dictatorship. Did you know that Nazi Germany was a democracy at one point in time before Hitler came in and had people replaced in politics that thought the same way as he did and that he was able to get the constitution of his country voted out and then it became a dictatorship. A Republic is a government were everybody gets a say in things a democracy is a government were only politicians get a say in things. And through democracy The Great Republic of The Uninted States is becoming a country were it has to compare itself to weaker world players like Canada to win. But thank God that this democratic government in the U.S. is becomeing weak because the people are fighting it. Maybe I was a little harsh on the terorists in my first post but the thing I was not harsh on was democracy and if the U.S. democrats keep it up this country will be a 3rd world bankrupt dictatorship were nobody has rights in oh I'd say 10 to 30 years!!!

Thanks Platapus for that point by point - examination of the laws. And yes I suppose there are ways for countries to claim they have a right to use torture in a war or some other similar conflict.

Maybe we're in the situation we were before WW 2 when the League of nations was too weak to stop the big war. Maybe the UN and it's conventions has just become too weak to actually matter globally.