Thanks for al the fish!

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by pythos

I sincerely hope that a certain Katana wielding moderator will take this as a warning sign.

Sometimes mods do indeed get over zealous. Your thread questioning the closing of the thread questioning the closing of the thread about the crack was closed in a manner that was flat out rude.

Sorry Mod, but it was. If I had put anything like that on one of my forums I would have been ripped into by those in the forum.

I have noticed really heavy handed practices happening at Sub Sim. One I refer to is the bunching of ALL of the Patch 2 complaints into one jumbled mess. I can no longer separate the chaff from the substance.

I don't know how many donate to this site, but I feel as a donor I am entitled to a bit kinder and less heavy handed moderation.

I like Sub sim very much, and want it returning to the fun, and enlightened place it was.

By the way. I found the discussion about the ending splash screen to be filled with waaaaaay too much emotion. It is a fraggin game people, not a pro Nazi simulation.

Hello Member. Since we feel the need to call me out, I feel the need to reply.

The thread in question was closed because the question posed by a particular member was answered by the site administrator himself. Opening up another thread to repeat the same question is not necessary, and is something that can and should be taken via a private message. The message thereafter was quite simple: The discussion of cracks, hacks or piracy will not be tollerated. There has been a rash of such activity on this board in the past few months. If you recall, we were nice about the matter. This has not stemmed the tide. The time for pleasantry in this matter has passed.

Regarding the thirteen threads of patch discussion, it is inappropriate to have this many threads devoted to a single topic of which virtually nothing is factually known. Since it is nearly all chaff, it is common practice to place it into a single thread. This has been done repeatedly over the past decade. I am sorry that you did not approve in this case.

[ddrgn]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Hello Member. Since we feel the need to call me out, I feel the need to reply.

The thread in question was closed because the question posed by a particular member was answered by the site administrator himself. Opening up another thread to repeat the same question is not necessary, and is something that can and should be taken via a private message. The message thereafter was quite simple: The discussion of cracks, hacks or piracy will not be tollerated. There has been a rash of such activity on this board in the past few months. If you recall, we were nice about the matter. This has not stemmed the tide. The time for pleasantry in this matter has passed.

Regarding the thirteen threads of patch discussion, it is inappropriate to have this many threads devoted to a single topic of which virtually nothing is factually known. Since it is nearly all chaff, it is common practice to place it into a single thread. This has been done repeatedly over the past decade. I am sorry that you did not approve in this case.

So swastikas and third reich eagles is ok, but talking about a perfectly legitimate topic about the same games that have started this very board (which would not be here if not for the GAMES) is prohibited. Nice.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by ddrgn

So swastikas and third reich eagles is ok, but talking about a perfectly legitimate topic about the same games that have started this very board (which would not be here if not for the GAMES) is prohibited. Nice.

Discussion of games is fine. Discussion of circumventing copy protection, popular or not, is not fine. It is that simple.

Personally, I have yet to recieve a complaint about swastikas and other Third Reich symbols. Still, no, prominent swastikas are inappropriate here.

[raymond6751]

Originally Posted by ddrgn

So swastikas and third reich eagles is ok, but talking about a perfectly legitimate topic about the same games that have started this very board (which would not be here if not for the GAMES) is prohibited. Nice.

The 'perfectly legitimate topic' isn't legitimate by the rules of the forum. All members agree to those rules when joining, hence are bound by them.

It's about the game. All the rest is just not necessary. This is the forum that it is because somebody has the obligation to see we all follow the rules, and has the task of doing something about it when we don't.

Nobody likes the cops until they need one.

[Aufklarer]

agree

Nobody likes the cops until they need one.

[pythos]

I am going to humbly request that those that want to provide input on the topic please look at all issues involved.

I am seeing people showing signs of "going along to get along".

How many that do this have looked at the threads in question. How many have looked at the initial "cracked" thread, along with all other involved threads.

Yes the initial post dealt with a news article dealing with yet another failure of DRM, a failure that is the result of a crack. However there were no addresses given pertaining to where to get the crack. It was simply an article about the failure of DRM.

The thread from Uber was concerning the closing of this thread. this thread was also closed.

The next thread from uber was asking why that thread had been closed.

The last two threads were no where near being in violation of the rules, and the closing of the second thread is what lead to the ensuing silliness.

Just going "yep yep yep, that's what the rules say, yep yep yep" is not the way to deal with this. You need to look at all items in the discussion. That is the only way we can avoid such situations.

The state of SH5 has really pulled up some bad emotions, and friends have started tearing at each other. I even had someone tell me flat out, they are not here to make friends, which I frankly find sad to say the least. I come here to converse with people with a similar love of a very rare genre of game, one that at the moment is not being served well by its developer.

By the way, this is the post that caused all this silliness.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168287

Don't just look at the title, look at the content of the article itself.

This article is tantamount to a news company covering a break in. The news organization is only covering the effects from the crooks that did the crime. CNET is doing likewise in this article. I have looked at all hyperlinks and could not find one path to the crack in question. It does however give a glimpse into the thought processes of those that break codes. I read what they say, and I see some pompous little asses frankly. This article covers the effect of the crack, which is that DRM is a failure that has resulted in legit players not being able to play, while pirates play all they want...off the net, on lap top, away from internet connection, and so on.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by pythos

Just going "yep yep yep, that's what the rules say, yep yep yep" is not the way to deal with this.

Of course it is. That IS what the rules say. Neal is quite clear on this. You may not like the rule. You may disagree with the rule. You may have a great argument against the rule. But none of that matters, as it's Neal's rule. If you have an issue with it, take it up with him. Don't publicly call out moderators for enforcing the rules of the site. That alone would be enough to earn you a ban in many internet forums.

You need to look at all items in the discussion. That is the only way we can avoid such situations.

No, the only way to avoid such situations is to abide by the very clearly spelled out rules of the forum.

[kylania]

Originally Posted by pythos

Yes the initial post dealt with a news article dealing with yet another failure of DRM, a failure that is the result of a crack. However there were no addresses given pertaining to where to get the crack. It was simply an article about the failure of DRM. - Discussing cracks, even discussing articles about cracks, isn't allowed by the rules. END OF STORY. (or at least it should have been..)

The thread from Uber was concerning the closing of this thread. this thread was also closed. - Should have been a PM to the mod that locked it, not a public cry for attention.

The next thread from uber was asking why that thread had been closed. - Should have been a PM to Neal, not yet another public cry for attention.

The last two threads were no where near being in violation of the rules, and the closing of the second thread is what lead to the ensuing silliness. - not against the rules, but no good could come from them.

Last two threads never should have been threads. First thread was properly closed and that decision should have been accepted or discussed with mods via PM. Two fruitless posts and a melodramatic "Oh lordy, I quit!" post is the problem here, not the locking of a thread that was clearly against the rules and yet more DRM spam.

[pythos]

Okay, here we go.

These are the rules concerning this as by Neal himself

"Just to be on the safe side, here's a reminder that Subsim does not allow discussion of stealing games (or borrowing, sampling, however one wishes to rationalize it).

This also means don't discuss cracks, on legal games or not, because there's no way to determine who is using a crack on a legal game or a pirated game. And please, for the love of god, don't jump up and announce to the world you are angry about the DRM and you plan to pirated SH5. This equals ban here.

This is spelled out in the user agreement to everyone when they join the forum and the rules are clear.

No one cares what you do in your home, or how you measure yourself ethically, but no, you cannot discuss it here."


Now, don't bother clicking on the underlined statement because it leads to an error message.

Now, looking at what Neal has said, I want you to point to me where it says discussion of the EFFECTS OF a crack is prohibited. The Cnet article was about the EFFECT not the crack itself.

As I have said, this is equal to a news agency covering the effects of a break in. Not going into full detail or giving how to instructions of the break in.

Ubisoft's DRM is a very controversial matter as seen by how people have behaved on this normally civil forum.

It is not helped by people ripping into each other, or calling one another names.

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by kylania

Last two threads never should have been threads. First thread was properly closed and that decision should have been accepted or discussed with mods via PM. Two fruitless posts and a melodramatic "Oh lordy, I quit!" post is the problem here, not the locking of a thread that was clearly against the rules and yet more DRM spam.

^^ This
I've tried to stay out of this

I've seen many an "I quit" post on other forums , they have only one purpose - to create drama. It seems that you are all falling into the drama trap. Kylania has the situation as I see it to a tee.

Uber Gruber should have PM'd a mod or even Neal if he had a problem, instead he decided to create more threads (and therfore more drama) in a forum that has seen more than its fair share of drama recently and I can't believe that anyone is suprised that his drama threads got locked.

[Athlonic]

By the way,

The fact that Moderators have something to do with the 1.2 patch not been already released wouldn't surprise me ...



Just kidding


Going out ...

[Spartan]

@Uber Gruber - I'm of the same opinion as you brother. It is the main reason I dont post much or work on mods anymore...

In short, DRM is pure evil and the current state-of-affairs for IPR in the USA is tantamount to legal tyranny.

[Jimbuna]

I usually try to keep out of these textual minefields and certainly wouldn't want to see this thread degenerate into a 'who is right and who is wrong' or a 'I support his actions or I don't' but this is how I see it starting to go.

Uber Gruber it would appear has decided to leave the forum for whatever reason. We can all speculate on said reason and it is probable that said speculation is correct.

Whether I agree with his issue or not is irrelevant, because if an individual feels strongly enough about a principle then it is possible they will react to any adverse (as they see it) response to that principle.

Personally, I believe that is a pity because this forum has a wide and diverse set of members, all of whom contribute in one way or another and Uber Gruber certainly did his fair share of contributing.

I don't condone piracy, the use of cracks or anything else of that nature so perhaps there lies a clue to my position.

The fact is, this is Neals forum, Neal sets the rules, he appoints his Moderators personally and it is their function to assist in the smooth running of this forum.

People have choices on most things in life and in the context of being a SubSim member it is obvious, in my mind anyway.....abide by the rules or look at frequenting an alternative forum/s.

[Immacolata]

Pick your fights, I say. Discussing cracked games on subsim is one you're gonna lose. Why pick it? Bars are for drinking, churches for praying. If the barkeep asks you to take your proselytizing elsewhere, or the vicar asks you to stop drinking in the Church, why push the matter?

[IanC]

Uber Gruber, I know this is easier said than done, but don't take it personally. The threads would've been locked no matter who started them.