Game end sequence ***Spoiler alert***

[Faamecanic]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I love it when people are so wrapped up in Uboat romance they lose historical perspective through rose tinted glasses. Go ahead and lay glory and approbation to the 3rd reich if that's your thing, personally I just wanted a submarine simulation. No flowery imagery required for that.

Duc...I understand where you are coming from. But lets not be overly sensitive and read something into this thats not there. I do agree there is no need for the swastika as it was a symbol of evil.

But those end photos conjure up the words in Adm. Doenitz book "ten years and twenty days" where he said the KM and all common soliders and sailors fought for thier country with pride". Adm. Nimitz then also backed Doenitz as he tesitfied for him at the Nuremburg War Trials and said "the uboat arm did nothing more then we did in the pacific".

Should we Americans feel shame in what we did to Japanesse merchantmen? Sailors who where just doing a job? No we shouldnt glorify it (and making a game about it borders on glorification)... But in fact playing all the SH seires actually made me reflect on ALL the sailors/submariners and the sacrafice they gave, and the pride they felt for what they were doing, no matter what flag they flew under.

NOTE I also agree with you that if someone is loosing "jollies" over the lack of a swastikz...then they need thier head examined.

[Platapus]

[QUOTE=Faamecanic;1369095] I do agree there is no need for the swastika as it was a symbol of evil.

/QUOTE]

The swastika is not a symbol of evil. The swastika is an ancient symbol of good luck.

Among its other names, it is also called a sun wheel, fylfot, and in Germany the Hakenkreuz hooked cross.

The Nazi party did not originate the swastika, but adopted it as their symbol because it did have a long history of being a good luck or righteous symbol.

The fact that bad people used the swastika as a misplaced symbol, does not adversely reflect on the symbol, but on the people.


I do have to admit some surprise when I was in South Korea and I saw swastikas on some of the buildings.
Don't hate the symbol, hate the people who misused the symbol.

[captainprid]

This is ridiculous! To imagine that a kid who played SHV, had the concentration to complete it and actually got to the end screen would suddenly, because of one image, shave his head, buy a pair of Doc Martens and start Sieg Heiling in the mirror is like saying the same kid who saw a McDonalds advert would become a food fiend overnight.

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by captainprid

This is ridiculous! To imagine that a kid who played SHV, had the concentration to complete it and actually got to the end screen would suddenly, because of one image, shave his head, buy a pair of Doc Martens and start Sieg Heiling in the mirror is like saying the same kid who saw a McDonalds advert would become a food fiend overnight.

I'm with you on this one - this has been blown completely out of proportion.

For God's sake we're all adults here , I'm so sick of do-gooders telling me what I can and can't play/watch etc etc.

Reality check - it's an end screen in a computer game - it's not a call to arms for the Nazi party. If you don't like it , change it. Kyliana has posted a mod to enable you to do just that.

And just to show how stupid this is - we've gone from a game end scene, to photo's of the holocaust in one thread.

[LiveGoat]

What's chilling about that pic that Karamazov posted is that from across the room it looks like an abstract painting.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Huh, I have not finished the game yet, so do I have to wait till then to try to annex my nieghbors yard, you know , for the greater glory ?

I will wait to be outraged untill they release
" Sid Miers, Trains - Germany 1939-1945 edition " now that would cause a controversy.

Come on, games don't cause kids to go out and do things, it's just a copeing device they use after words to figure out why they did it, while bad parenting and bad school systems get another pass.

[captainprid]

In hindsight I have realised my other posts were wrong, I think Ubisoft have a moral obligation to start regional support groups wherever the game is sold. They could be called "PotEntial NazI's anonymouS" or "PENIS" for short and would involve weaning people away from potential National Socialism to just socialism.
At these meetings kids who have been exposed to the evil of the sequences in the game can be given gluten free biscuits and ethically sustainable Orange Juice while being encouraged to cry and talk about their fears in an open and non-judgemental environment.
Ubisoft meanwhile, should be forced to give 3/4 of their total profits to be split equally between holocaust rememberance funds and Joseph Stalin's rehabilitaion in to main stream society fund............


Oh and for guys from countries that don't understand it, this is called sarcasm!

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

I'm with you on this one - this has been blown completely out of proportion.

For God's sake we're all adults here , I'm so sick of do-gooders telling me what I can and can't play/watch etc etc.

Reality check - it's an end screen in a computer game - it's not a call to arms for the Nazi party. If you don't like it , change it. Kyliana has posted a mod to enable you to do just that.

And just to show how stupid this is - we've gone from a game end scene, to photo's of the holocaust in one thread.

Well, one thing is a mod, which is fine in itself, but the company who made the official version is the one sending out the signal by having created such a nazi glorifying image. Don't forget that Ubisoft had to pull out the copies from Germany because some swastikas unintentionally was left inside the game. Germany has laws against nazi symbols for a reason. So it ain't exactly stupid. History can easily repeat itself, if we as mankind don't watch out and inform the youth. That's why the official version counts as a mistake, which should never have been made. Whatever the mod community then does afterwards is another matter.

[danasan]

Moin Moin again,

I personally do not blame any computer game to lead guys running amok.

I personally prefer accurate flags for being historically correct. I can't imagine a stock version of Bismarck running the Denmark strait...

I can put on all the flags in my computer game I want. BUT: I am not allowed to. Not even in my private rooms here in Germany. It is a special case here, maybe in Austria as well. Showing these items anybody else could lead to an investigation by our Verfassungsschutz.

We are still running all these reports on history channel dealing with Hitler. All aspects are shown as close as possible from nowadays point of view. Honestly, there must be some kind of "aura" around that.A lot of people might be influenced by this "aura".

You can still see and feel this "aura" in some places here. During my time in the army I was sent to Sonthofen. The dining room is one of the largest anyway. It is 109 m long. That is somewhat 330 ft. You could park two DDs in it. There are some images available. Very impressive.

Back to topic:

The image we were talking about is fine. No problem with that outside Germany.

danasan

Originally Posted by Carotio

Well, one thing is a mod, which is fine in itself, but the company who made the official version is the one sending out the signal by having created such a nazi glorifying image. Don't forget that Ubisoft had to pull out the copies from Germany because some swastikas unintentionally was left inside the game. Germany has laws against nazi symbols for a reason. So it ain't exactly stupid. History can easily repeat itself, if we as mankind don't watch out and inform the youth. That's why the official version counts as a mistake, which should never have been made. Whatever the mod community then does afterwards is another matter.

I'm sorry, but this is just getting silly. Do people really believe that one picture in a game is going to incite mass NAZIism? I fully agree that lessons must be learnt from the past, that's exactly why during my education I clearly remember being shown NAZI propaganda images and videos of parades and the like, and then talking about and analyzing them. Funnily enough, over 15 years later and none of my old school friends have since gone and joined a neo-nazi group, or started rounding up and killing jews!

You don't stop history from repeating itself by covering up every bad image from the past with a lovely little photo of some cute puppies dancing under a rainbow in a cloud of fairy dust!

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by Carotio

Well, one thing is a mod, which is fine in itself, but the company who made the official version is the one sending out the signal by having created such a nazi glorifying image. Don't forget that Ubisoft had to pull out the copies from Germany because some swastikas unintentionally was left inside the game. Germany has laws against nazi symbols for a reason. So it ain't exactly stupid. History can easily repeat itself, if we as mankind don't watch out and inform the youth. That's why the official version counts as a mistake, which should never have been made. Whatever the mod community then does afterwards is another matter.

I'm sorry - you may see it as Nazi Glorification, I don't. All I see is an ending screen in a game. I see a U Boat , 3 flags and an eagle. It does not make me want to join a neo nazi party - nor does it make me want to persecute minorities. If it offends you then mod it out using Kylania's mod. But don't presume to tell me how it affects me.

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

I'm sorry - you may see it as Nazi Glorification, I don't. All I see is an ending screen in a game. I see a U Boat , 3 flags and an eagle. It does not make me want to join a neo nazi party - nor does it make me want to persecute minorities. If it offends you then mod it out using Kylania's mod. But don't presume to tell me how it affects me.

THIS^^^

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Carotio

Well, one thing is a mod, which is fine in itself, but the company who made the official version is the one sending out the signal by having created such a nazi glorifying image. .

THIS.

[Ducimus]

I swear, some people must be incredibly blind, or totally ignorant of propaganda, or what message can be conveyed through the proper use of artistic rendering. If anyone else here can remember back to the arts and humanities lectures you had to suffer through in college.......

First, lets uncensor the end screen shall we?
(Excuse the quick edit in MSPaint)


And here is an evaluation of this composition.

1.) There is great emphasis on the flags, occupying the back ground, and center stage. Not one flag, but THREE of them. Adding more emphasis to the symbology.

2.) The reich eagle in the foreground. It can only be the reich eagle, and it is symbology that is occuping the fore ground.

3.) The uboat, in the middle, is being wrapped in the above symbology. Keep in mind that symbols are representive of an idea, or ideaology. The uboat, is in effect, being blanketed in the symbols of the ideology of the 3rd reich. This is called propaganda. Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. This is political in nature

4.) The context of the message smacks of negationism. Together, in conjunction with all of the symbolism, it is depicting the 3rd reich in a favorable light.

5.) The composition, and theme of the overall picture is a carbon copy of Nazi propaganda posters.

6.) The flowery rose petals shower, indicating heroic" and triumphant over the existing symbolism. I would say, this is to infer that the 3rd reich is valient, heroic, and victorious.

Here are some other posters that infer similar themes.



(this one should look familiar)




Now, things like the swaztika should be displayed... in historical context. To do otherwise is to whitewash history. But it should be displayed nothing more then the flag that happened to be flying at the time. But there is a line between historical depiction, and glorification, and the end game screen crosses that line in its artistic composition, excessive use of symbolism, and inference of a valiant and heroic 3rd reich at sea.

Under no circumstances should the 3rd reich, in any manner, be displayed in a favorable light. Individual heroism certainly, but not collectively as a whole as that one end game screen does.

Considering it is part of an official release, it can be construed as an endorsement of the ideolgy behind the symbology considering how it is being depicted and displayed. I cannot fathom how some people cannot understand that.

[Noren]

True, the swastika was an ancient symbol from India but we have to put it in contemporary international context. It is close related to the nazi regime and therefore banned. It amazes me that neo-nazism is growing, when ww2 happened just 65 years ago.

Im glad that Germany has taken the truth about the holocoust to heart and continue to showcase concentrationcamps and Im just as glad that info about the holocoust is mandatory in primary shool in my country, Sweden.
If we dont learn from history, mankind will just repeat it.