Things that bother me about "Iron Coffins"

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Subnuts

Official records fail to credit him with sinking or damaging a single ship during his career as a U-boat captain.

I see that!

http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/u415.html
http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/u953.html

[Takao]

Or just go right to his bio: http://www.uboat.net/men/werner_herbert.htm


No Subnuts, I don't hate you! You are the Fox Mulder of the subsim set...
"The truth is out there."

Having read a book or five about u-boats before I read this one, I didn't find it all that impressive. The problem is, that for many, this was their "introduction" to u-boats and the take what is written in it to be the gospel.

This is a situation similar to Mitsuo Fuchida, although he has been discredited in Japan for many years, because of his work with Gordon Prange, he is still taken as gospel in America regarding his story.

[mcarlsonus]

There was SOMETHING I read years ago quoting verbatim from the diary of a Japanese submariner in WW1 that he'd kept current even as he died in that sub due to being unable to surface and, at that time, having no escape trunk. A primitive boat, it used a conventional gasoline engine for surface travel and, as he wrote, he was being overcome by gasoline fumes. Sad, but very interesting!

What WAS that? Does anyone know? Was it just a PART of a larger submarine-themed book?

[Subnuts]

Originally Posted by mcarlsonus

There was SOMETHING I read years ago quoting verbatim from the diary of a Japanese submariner in WW1 that he'd kept current even as he died in that sub due to being unable to surface and, at that time, having no escape trunk. A primitive boat, it used a conventional gasoline engine for surface travel and, as he wrote, he was being overcome by gasoline fumes. Sad, but very interesting!

What WAS that? Does anyone know? Was it just a PART of a larger submarine-themed book?

I dug up a passage about this from The Navy Times Book Of Submarines:

In April 1910, one of Holland's Kobe-built submarines -Japanese No. 6- sank in sixty feet of water, without hope of rescue. No. 6 had been running submerged using the gasoline engine, taking suction through a primitive version of the "schnorkel," when waves washed over the open end, the float valve did not close, and water flowed into the boat. Commanding Officer Lieutenant Sakuma kept a running log of the almost three hours that he and his fellow crew members awaited the inevitable. "Words of apology fail me for having sunk His Majesty's Submarine No. 6," he wrote. "My subordinates are killed by my fault, but it is with pride that I inform you that the crew to a man have discharged their duties as sailors should with the utmost coolness until their dying moments."

He asked that this accident not be held against Japan's adoption of submarines, urged the Emperor to continue the search for the ideal boat, said farewell to friends and relatives, and closed the log: "My breathing is so difficult and painful. It is now 12:40 pm."

[robbo180265]

^^ I just got quite a chill reading that Subnuts.

Poor devil what a horrible way to die.

[daft]

Originally Posted by Subnuts

A few months ago, Neal asked me to write a review of Iron Coffins for the next almanac. As I'm not supposed to actually post the actual review on this forum, I thought I'd bring up some of the..."issues"...I have with Iron Coffins. In my view, this book is painfully overrated, factually dishonest, and shouldn't occupy the elevated position it holds in the U-boat "canon." So, here's a quick laundry list:

• It's ridiculously high standing. Iron COffins is often thought of as a crowning masterpiece in the genre of submarine literature, the definitive account of life on a German U-boat, and a 100% factual account. Hasn't anyone ever heard of looking into secondary sources? I can study translated plans of U-570, read through Donitz's war diary, and examine the results of every convoy battle, all without having to fly to Germany and dig through old records.

• The amount of blatant fabrication contained within. Werner has U-557 sinking seven ships on her first patrol, when only one was sunk in reality. He then has her sinking six ships on her third patrol, when again, only one was sunk. He then has U-230 attacking Convoy HX-229/SC-122, sinking seven ships of the 22 in total sunk from the two convoys. However, the boat never got close enough to either convoy to fire a single torpedo or shell at it! Finally, he describes attacking a convoy in January, 1945 near England, observing three distinct torpedo strikes. Official records fail to credit him with sinking or damaging a single ship during his career as a U-boat captain.

• Werner's depiction of the Allied ASW effort. Based on Iron Coffins, Werner survived hundreds of aerial attacks, and several 30-hour long depth charge barrages. He's so lucky, though, that the Allies never used air-dropping homing torpedoes, Hedgehogs, sonobuoys, or hunter-killer groups against him. Considering the Allies has turned anti-submarine warfare into an artform by war's end, I find this hard to believe.

• Werner's depiction of himself. He's a stereotypical "Good German" who happens to be politically neutral, has no opinion of the Nazis, stands up against the Gestapo when his father is arrested, and has only the classiest of affairs with French prost...I mean, ladies. Everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault, even when his boat gets sunk in harbor. He shoots down a plane single-handedly with an ancient machine gun and ends up in the French foreign legion. Seriously?

• The reactions of U-boat veterans to the book has been glossed over. Jurgen Rohwer said that if one were to underline all of the errors in this book in red, it would look like a blood bath. The Association of German Submariners called it a "hack work totally without foundation." Iron Coffins was just as controversial as Das Boot when it came out, but people accept Herbert Werner more readily then they would Lothar-Gunther Buchheim. Why ignore these very real criticisms?

• Werner's overall attitude. He wants us to pause and reflect on how horrible war is while embellishing on his wartime experiences. He writes a grim anti-war story while including exciting fabricated battle scenes to spice up the narrative and make it more palatable. I find this whole attitude condescending at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.

Okay, you can all hate me now.

I good write up regarding some issues that has been there for quite a long while. It is at times glossed over since many see the book as something of an iconic work for anyone interested in submarine warfare during the Second World War. It is a very good thing that these issues are brought to the from, and they should always be kept in mind while reading.

[tater]

Fuchida was raked over the coals by the Japanese themselves long before Shattered Sword (which is a great book), it's just that it was in Japanese, and historians elsewhere just parroted previous acceptance of Fuchida's book.

Regarding Iron Coffins, it absolutely deserves to be "raked over the coals" and discredited if it was presented as history when in fact it was fiction. Firing 4 fish, hearing 4 booms, and claiming 4 sinkings when in fact all 4 hit one ship is one thing, making up entire convoys, etc is another.

If you make the claim that a book is true, then it deserves very harsh treatment if it is made up.

It deserves to be called "fraudulent" in fact if that is the case. I don;t buy ww2-themed novels for the most part (read maybe 2), so if I had bought IC I'd be pissed (I read it long ago, but it was lent by my uncle, and I was a kid at the time).