A prophecy from 1998: "The Euro comes too early"

[Diopos]

About Greece: Everybody knew its fiscal state. Everything else you hear is pure BS. Greece, in a sense, always payed her dues but people don't know it. For example, before entering the EU and under mostly German pressure it "allowed" her obsolete and subsidised industry to go under. Days before introducing the Euro we actually depreciated the drachma to the level "preset" by the Europeans (aka Budensbank). A lot of money was made then and believe me not by you or me. When Europe demands we respond. We never had problems regarding the price of food stuff up to the '90s. Enter the scene the European super market chains. 10 years later our supermarket prices are comparable and even higher than Berlin's with our wages almost 50-70% of our Eurozone brothers. Large part of the deficit is due to armament procurement (from Europe and the US mostly) . The vast majority of the telecommunication's infrastructure is from Siemens. I could go on and on.
Everybody knew, many made alot of money from the black sheep of Europe that Greece is portrayed to be nowdays. And many of them turned a blind eye to the lack of professionalism of the public/state agencies they had to interact with, in order to get that money. A lack of professionalism so convenient and accommodating.....
The "corrupted greeks" are a big problem mainly to the rest of the greeks and a nuisanse to the other Eurozone citizens. Not to the banks and big companies, though. Remember the Greek economy is about 3-4% of the Eurozone. I don't know the greek participation in EUrozone deficit and debt.
The question you must answer these days is "Who wants a weaker Euro?" Then you'll know what is going on in Greece, Portugal, Spain and maybe even France down the line.......
If they really wanted to help greece they should do so on a strategic base regarding relations with Turkey and the control of influx of illegal immigrants (most of them via Turkey again), but then that would lead to a lessening of armament sales in the area, and we don't want that do we, ehh?

[Skybird]

@ Diopos,

Turkey - has just skipped it's visa rulings with several Arab and north-African nations, they can come to Turkey now without Visa. And Turkey already is the most important transit country for illegal and uncontrolled migration into the EU, both turkish and non-Turkish people. Turkey also wants, no, it demands the EU to skip European Visa obligations for Turks, playing the "discrimination!"-card again.

Shut down that border to Turkey completely. Regarding Turkey, Greece can get all my support it wants, as long as it is not assisting but preventing Turkey's EU membership.

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by Skybird

@ Diopos,

...
Regarding Turkey, Greece can get all my support it wants, as long as it is not assisting but preventing Turkey's EU membership.

Now you know why Greece is a member of the Eurozone and why Cyprus was admitted in the EU. In the case of Greece, its financial status was irrelevant. It was a political decision and now you know why.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Diopos

Now you know why Greece is a member of the Eurozone and why Cyprus was admitted in the EU. In the case of Greece, its financial status was irrelevant. It was a political decision and now you know why.

I doubt that was the reason for accepting Greece back then. Ten years ago, enthusiasm in the EU for turkey's membership was much greater than it is today. And even today many Eurocrats still take turkey's membership sooner or later for granted. They even insist on it - "or else...". And Germany's position - is like a leaf in the wind. One year ago the "conservative" CDU, in coalition government with the socialists, strictly opposed Turkish EU membership, they said. Now, with a different government constellation and a libertarian partner, the same party suddenly says that Turkish membership is their goal.

A political culture of deceitful shopkeepers they are.

[Diopos]

It is all about options, and tuning mechanisms.
With Greece and Cyprus in there is a possibility of someone saying no to Turkey without that someone having to be France or Germany and, in denying Turkey, opposing the US. Remember the times back then. Promoting a common currency, without a "unification" of interests either on foreign affairs or defense, the induction of the former Warsaw Pact countries en masse and in a hurried manner, the Turkish issue and so on. Some of the european leaders of the time sought some options as most of the above were initiated or "controlled" by the US. Thats the main role of Greece. An option. Plus a good location on the map of course and not much of a financial burden after all.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Diopos

It is all about options, and tuning mechanisms.
With Greece and Cyprus in there is a possibility of someone saying no to Turkey without that someone having to be France or Germany and, in denying Turkey, opposing the US. Remember the times back then. Promoting a common currency, without a "unification" of interests either on foreign affairs or defense, the induction of the former Warsaw Pact countries en masse and in a hurried manner, the Turkish issue and so on. Some of the european leaders of the time sought some options as most of the above were initiated or "controlled" by the US. Thats the main role of Greece. An option.

Sounds almost like a conspiracy theory to me.

Plus a good location on the map of course

Of course. How many billions worth in yearly compensation?

and not much of a financial burden after all.

Is that a bad joke...???

German banks are Greece' biggest creditor, with 340+ billion euros (officially, unofficially it probably is even kore). Swiss and French banks are close behind. A Greek bancruptcy is major disaster for these banks, too. Greece will be payed out. Which emans the de facto end of the stability pact (which had strong legal rules, that ruled that ANY financial help to states in the eurozone to reach the 3% criterion is strictly prohibited. By this, the stablity and solidity of the new currency was claimed to be guaranteed). But the famous culture of bribery and corruption (sorry to be that harsh, but Greece really is famous for it, isn't it) in Greece flourished on as before, and the elite probably calculated on the Eu always paying for them if the lights are about to go out, and if the EU does then this is the last evidence that the stability pact simply was a meaningless lip confession from tjhe beginning on. For a country with a solid and hard currency like the D-Mark, that has been an extremely bad deal. Compared to the D-Mark, the Euro is made of wax and rubber then.

Even more, Greece was 2008 the biggest netto-receiver (calculating payment to the Eu versus payments from the Eu to a nation) of EU money, with 6.3 billion Euros. the biggest netto payer was, like in all years, Germany, with over 8.7 billion - more than twice as much than the second biggest netto payer, Italy (around 4 billion). and beside Ireland and Portugal, Greece has been the EU's biggest boarder since it joined the EU. So what do you mean by "Greece after all is no big financial burden"...?

To say that Greece does not cost the EU and Germany much money, is a bit rich, really. In netto, in 2008 Greece absorbed three quarters of the German netto loss in the germany payment bilance to the EU (Germany roughly finances one quarter of the EU budget).

You must not wonder then that Germans are a bit pissed about us needing to pay you out again because since decades you people in Greece can't get hold of your leaders and can't bring your corrpution under control. and if we then are told that "Greece does not cost that much at all" and that it is a valuable contribution to the Eu because it offers these strange precious "options" you mentioned, then some of us get angry, simply that. For sinking so much money in Greece, and for Greece eventually becoming the major rock that sinks the EU currency's stability and trustworthiness, these "options" are a bit thin in value. Economic, financial, scientific, technological or military contributions of worth would be a better compensation.

If I sound angry, then that is not by mistake, but is intentional. the famous mediterranean laissez-faire can be pushed too far. Especially when it is the others who are expected to finance the repair of the damages it causes.

[Diopos]

Don't get upset Sky!

First of all take into account that the Greece's debt (general goverment) is less than 4% of the debt of the Eurozone (16 states) (reference year 2008, data from here )
It was that order of magnitude that I had in mind when I was talking about "financial burden". I never meant to sound as "hey German you are rich so you can afford to pay me"

When I was talking about a good location on the map I meant in a strategic context (not for vacations!).

I'm not into conspiracy theories. It is obvious that countries are admitted in the EU and Eurozone because either the major european powers or the US wants them to. I think that in the case of Greece it was more of a political decision based on strategic rather than any other reasons.

I do care (and worry) about how you and many other feel about Greece but I assure that I didn't steel your money... I'm in for a 5-10% reduction in income (0% increase last year) and an about a 20% increase in taxes (not so sure about that yet). I haven't taken my wife out for a proper dinner for two years (or is it more?) and last summer my vacations lasted less than a week. Believe me not all Greeks or Portugese or Spaniards are having a party with other people's money.

On the corruption issue just a thought. It takes two to tango. Siemens "tangoed" alot. But then nobody started to point the finger to Germans in general. And as I said the first victim of """"Greek"""" corruption is the Greeks themselves.

These are difficult times, opinions must be formed and decisions must be made. Having stereotypes may derail proper analysis of the situation.

.