What can we really expect from SHV?

martes86 · 01-01-10, 06:38 PM

Well,

First of all, hi everyone, and Happy New Year, I hope you all got incredibly drunk and had exuberant women (or men, whatever your preference is) all around you on New Year's day.

And, now, down to business:

A lot of you people have it all wrong. A superficial knowledge of the Developer Studio's hierarchy can lead you to think that all big decisions are made by guys in suits carrying arround suitcases full of PowerPoint presentations, and driving in awesome sports cars. And in some cases, you may be right, but not with these guys.

Meeting the devs in person and having spoken with them, clears a lot of stuff for me. First of all being the fact that, while the Ubi managing directors probably love the sim being played by casual gamers (granting more sells = $), that's got a lot to do with Dan's wish that everyone gets to play it. And to me it's perfectly logical. While I'd love to have such a devoted fanbase, I'd also love to have a much broader audience, that everyone got to know about the work I've done, and if they liked it, showed their support. This is a piece of art after all, a creation for us to enjoy.
That's why we're seeing certain features, like those health bars, but those will be easily removable through the usual realism menu (at least, that's what the presence of a realism menu implies, and we were assured that we could customize our realism level, so...), and so we hardcore geeks can play in 100% or almost 100% if we like.

I think we'll be safe to say that about 85-95% of features already present in SH3, will be back in SH5, and probably some of the improvements from SH4 (namely the graphics) will be in too.

There's also the hope of the modding-friendly scripts developed for the interface (which we got the chance to see a bit in Copenhaguen), and the hope that might lead to the ultimate SDK we've all waited so long for (though this last point is a little speculation).

Maybe, in the begginings of this trip (the simulation trip, that is), there was room for panic, pesimism... but now we know the devs, we know they love this as much as we do (the trip to Laboe comes to mind), we've heard directly from them what they want to accomplish... there will be certain disagreements, that's always bound to happen in game-design, can't be helped, but I think that, in the grand scheme of things, SH5 will be a big step forward, and, if it meets the standards of the 24th, I'll make sure they get our full support for a job well done (and a nice cold beer, if we meet again... I hope that happens in the US meet this year

).

As for the standards of the rest of you, I can only tell you that the Devs are passionate in what they're doing, they want it to work as much as we do, and they love it. If, in the end, it doesn't become what we've expected of it, well, **** happens, blame the suits for not commiting a larger number of resources into the project, but the devs are truly commited for the project to succeed and for us to enjoy it, and so far, I've loved what I've seen.

As I always say, support your Devs (ordinary guys like you and me), and they'll do their best to improve more and more our sim each time... non-stop criticise them, and they'll end up wondering why the hell are they still commited to releasing games for a bunch of ungrateful hardcore geeks, apart than for the money they get from it.

Cheers, and keep drinking!

Fish40 · 01-01-10, 09:24 PM

I've read the whole thread, and agree with most of the points mentioned. I probrably won't get the game straight away, not because I'm worried about bugs ect.., hell I preordered SH3&4. I'm gonna need a new rig to run this puppy, and since I just bought a co-op, well you get the picture.

What I don't understand is why there seemed to be a rush to get these sims (SH3&4) on the shelves, obviously in an unfinished state, while a sim like Oleg Maddox's SOW has been in development for what seems forever. Has any of you seen the latest WIP screenshots? It seems no detail has been overlooked. Isn't the IL2 series put out by UBI? I don't get why it seems Oleg has all the time in the world to get it right, and the SH's needed patches for basic bugs. What am I missing?

martes86 · 01-01-10, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish40

What I don't understand is why there seemed to be a rush to get these sims (SH3&4) on the shelves, obviously in an unfinished state, while a sim like Oleg Maddox's SOW has been in development for what seems forever.

Money I guess... in the grand scheme of things, a small-fanbase game is more likely to be rushed out, since you're putting resources on it, and want to get it all back fast, specially if you think that you're wasting those resources, and are reading people in forums saying how they'll boycott its release. Oleg's sims, well, I think they have a bit more ample public, and knowing that they'll get the money anyways, they don't feel the rush... I don't know, just speculating...

Seeadler · 01-02-10, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish40

Isn't the IL2 series put out by UBI? I don't get why it seems Oleg has all the time in the world to get it right, and the SH's needed patches for basic bugs. What am I missing?

Maddox (Oleg) is an independent company and belongs to the 1C group not to Ubisoft. Ubisoft will be used only as a publisher, but not funded the development. But SH5 is developed and funded by Ubisoft itself.

JU_88 · 01-02-10, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeadler

Maddox (Oleg) is an independent company and belongs to the 1C group not to Ubisoft. Ubisoft will be used only as a publisher, but not funded the development. But SH5 is developed and funded by Ubisoft itself.

yep, I imagine Oleg is his own boss (pretty much)

Fish40 · 01-02-10, 12:07 PM

Well that's the answer I guess. We need some independently wealthy programmers who love WWII subsims as much as we do, so they could develop a simulation at their own pace, overlooking nothing. Anybody out there hit the Mega-Ball lately?

Seeadler · 01-02-10, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish40

We need some independently wealthy programmers who love WWII subsims as much as we do, so they could develop a simulation at their own pace, overlooking nothing. Anybody out there hit the Mega-Ball lately?

Here is a simplified cost accounting for an average game project.

As to see, also with a publisher who has the biggest part of the development costs, an independent development studio must wait until enough copies are sold before they have gotten something from the profits.

So a hardcore simulation must be sold over 100.000 copies before the devs get something from the cake, easier to receive with a popular action shooter for a wider range of customers

karamazovnew · 01-02-10, 04:41 PM

I hate economics. If you wouldn't mind a small detour, let me tell you where we're heading.

I live in a country where piracy is extremely common. To put it simple, it's not a phenomenon, it's a way of thinking. People have money to buy a PC or a console but not enough money to continue to buy games (or they just buy World of Warcraft and stop there). If it weren't for piracy, the IT market would simply collapse here. Playstation 2 and 3 have not yet been cracked globally. XBOX has been cracked though and many here prefer to buy a console for 1/3 of the money they spend on a PC and then get free games and even have enough money left to buy originals like L4D, MW2 and other multiplayer games. The fun about Xbox and original games is the community and achievements and DLC's and so on, so it's still safe.

The game of the year on Gamespot is Demon's Souls, a game made exclusive for PS3. For many years now PC users have had to other wait for years to play ported games (GTA), or get very poor ports (like Force Unleashed). But right now we're seeing the beginning of the end for PC gamers. Not only is piracy much easier to keep in check but consoles also have the appeal of not having to upgrade them every year. Plus, a console can be a video player, music player, web browser and so on.

Soon, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo and Sega will decide that it's better to join forces and create fixed and portable media centers. These consoles of the future will have an unified game engine protected in compiled files. Games will be much much smaller and easier to develop across different platforms. All platforms will communicate with each other. Even more, with the advent of 3d movies, soon we'll have a new hardware codec for movies and music. But you know what? They will be as protected as drugs. Right now it's not illegal to make an MP3 because each person has the right to record themselves. DIVX's are not illegal because each person has the right to record his weddings. Those new codecs however will be SECRET and illegal to break, transfer or own. These new file systems will be forced to run on individual consoles with unique ID's. Hard media will disappear. All media will be in downloadable format. We already have Steam and iTunes but they're not mandatory because not everybody has internet. 20 years ago the internet was NOTHING. Look at it now. Soon, every phone call, all TV channels everything will be in internet form. Free internet available everywhere. No more excuses that you don't have it.

20 years from now the internet will have 3 main threads. Media download and game connection, Browsing, and file transfer for firms. Completely separate with different protocols and IP's. No more viruses.
Game development could turn into a free area where anybody can use a simple game designer and create anything. We already have XNA and it's amazing what one can do with it. But it requires time and skill. However, in the future, these game editors could be much much more powerful and easier to use. However this would require a PC or special compliers and a different free market. I highly doubt that the game industry will allow such a "mistake".

Consoles will be shipped with a special credit card. Many don't use their cards on the net because they're afraid. New credit cards will be made, a new payment protocol, universal credits and different country currency rates. If in Romania sales suck because people don't have money to spend on games, music and video, they'll just lower the currency rate so people can buy more credits with the same money.

So, you might say, what's wrong with this future? I'll tell you. Imagine a future where all games come in pieces and you pay for each. You want to play Silent Hunter? You buy the game, it gets transfered to your console. You want to play Type VII, you pay. You want to play Type IX, you pay. You want to get new torpedoes, you pay. You want to listen to a new gramophone song, you pay. Little by little by little. Regardless of how many games you play or how much music you listen to, or how many movies you see, you'll usually end up spending a lot. Commercials will be rampant and aggressive. Marketing will have free reign. Modding will be gone forever. They'll even create a fictitious way to make money, by playing. I have a friend who doesn't have a job, but plays WoW and sells money. He gets enough to make by. There will be many more ways: achievement hunting, competitions, support, game masters and so on. More and more will be stuck in a new economy which will be used as a regulator for the real economy.

Gone will be the dream of free media, of a free global knowledge database. Very bleak indeed. But don't blame piracy for it. I blame piracy for making me stand more in front of the computer, time better spent on women or drinking with friends. If it weren't for piracy, I never would've played, and eventually bought, Silent Hunter 3 and 4. I wouldn't be waiting for SH5 for which I have already saved money for the collector's edition. In simple terms, I wouldn't even be here on this forum. So don't blame piracy. Blame profit. Blame economics. Blame this devil that money is.

I may be an atheist but I say God bless Linux and modding communities. Here's the Star Trek vision come to life in the virtual world. A vision of using your potential to bring enjoyment to others. May it last forever

PS: sorry about that... had it in me for a while.

Méo · 01-01-10, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martes86

As I always say, support your Devs (ordinary guys like you and me), and they'll do their best to improve more and more our sim each time... non-stop criticise them, and they'll end up wondering why the hell are they still commited to releasing games for a bunch of ungrateful hardcore geeks, apart than for the money they get from it.

Couldn't agree more!

I only hope that most of the people here think the same as you and me and the ''ungrateful hardcore geeks'' are only a minority.

PS: there is a MAJOR difference between critisizing their work in a constructive way and continuously bashing them because the game is not perfectly of your likings.

finchOU · 01-02-10, 12:38 PM

TreadJack warning!

Martes86,

Do you guys have a transcript of what you guys talked to the Dev team about? Did you get to ask questions? Was this predevelopment? How organized were the "subsim" group about pushing info? or was it more causal?

I guess what I'm asking is what was conveyed by both you guys to the Devs and vice versa. That is all. Thanks

Subtype Zero · 01-02-10, 01:05 PM

...pokes head out from under rock....

For those hoping that UBI will release a video featuring the sim at 100% geeked-out realism settings, forget it. Doing something like that would be potential marketing suicide, as it will freak out the nubies and casual gamers into thinking the game will be too complex to learn to play. Like it or not, the users of this forum are only a tiny, tiny minority of the potential buyers of the sim. Most new buyers will be most interested in fancy graphics, the new FPS interface, and X-box type features. UBI has to give them what they want, especially in the previews, or the game will not meet the publishers sales expectations.

stabiz · 01-02-10, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subtype Zero

...pokes head out from under rock....

For those hoping that UBI will release a video featuring the sim at 100% geeked-out realism settings, forget it. Doing something like that would be potential marketing suicide, as it will freak out the nubies and casual gamers into thinking the game will be too complex to learn to play. Like it or not, the users of this forum are only a tiny, tiny minority of the potential buyers of the sim. Most new buyers will be most interested in fancy graphics, the new FPS interface, and X-box type features. UBI has to give them what they want, especially in the previews, or the game will not meet the publishers sales expectations.

Its thinking like that that kills everything. Isnt the Silent Hunter series a success? Well, it must be considering the fifth title is about to hit the shelves, so why should UBI all of a sudden be "ashamed" of the core of the title? This relentless catering to the "owww-shiny-graphics-must-pirate-and-play-10-minutes-then-go-back-to-Crysis"-crowd is not productive, IMO. The series is popular because you get a taste of the life of a submariner, not because you get to win WW2 in a super sub in DirectX 15.

mookiemookie · 01-02-10, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subtype Zero

...pokes head out from under rock....

For those hoping that UBI will release a video featuring the sim at 100% geeked-out realism settings, forget it. Doing something like that would be potential marketing suicide, as it will freak out the nubies and casual gamers into thinking the game will be too complex to learn to play. Like it or not, the users of this forum are only a tiny, tiny minority of the potential buyers of the sim. Most new buyers will be most interested in fancy graphics, the new FPS interface, and X-box type features. UBI has to give them what they want, especially in the previews, or the game will not meet the publishers sales expectations.

If you've spent any time with the SH devs as I have, you would know that's not the case.

TDK1044 · 01-02-10, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If you've spent any time with the SH devs as I have, you would know that's not the case.

In a perfect world, the Devs would develop a sim to suit the needs of a community such as this. The reality is that they work for a Publisher. These Devs have gone above and beyond in the Silent Hunter series in order to keep a reasonable degree of realism and imersion in a very modable game, while also keeping the Publisher happy.

mookiemookie · 01-02-10, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDK1044

In a perfect world, the Devs would develop a sim to suit the needs of a community such as this. The reality is that they work for a Publisher. These Devs have gone above and beyond in the Silent Hunter series in order to keep a reasonable degree of realism and imersion in a very modable game, while also keeping the Publisher happy.

I see what you're getting at, but you can't deny that they've made the game very very scalable in both the out of the box sense (with realism options) and made it very open to modders adding our own brand of hardcore realism options.

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01-01-10, 06:38 PM	#1
martes86 Grey Wolf Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Colourful Seville - Spain Posts: 971 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Well, First of all, hi everyone, and Happy New Year, I hope you all got incredibly drunk and had exuberant women (or men, whatever your preference is) all around you on New Year's day. And, now, down to business: A lot of you people have it all wrong. A superficial knowledge of the Developer Studio's hierarchy can lead you to think that all big decisions are made by guys in suits carrying arround suitcases full of PowerPoint presentations, and driving in awesome sports cars. And in some cases, you may be right, but not with these guys. Meeting the devs in person and having spoken with them, clears a lot of stuff for me. First of all being the fact that, while the Ubi managing directors probably love the sim being played by casual gamers (granting more sells = $), that's got a lot to do with Dan's wish that everyone gets to play it. And to me it's perfectly logical. While I'd love to have such a devoted fanbase, I'd also love to have a much broader audience, that everyone got to know about the work I've done, and if they liked it, showed their support. This is a piece of art after all, a creation for us to enjoy. That's why we're seeing certain features, like those health bars, but those will be easily removable through the usual realism menu (at least, that's what the presence of a realism menu implies, and we were assured that we could customize our realism level, so...), and so we hardcore geeks can play in 100% or almost 100% if we like. I think we'll be safe to say that about 85-95% of features already present in SH3, will be back in SH5, and probably some of the improvements from SH4 (namely the graphics) will be in too. There's also the hope of the modding-friendly scripts developed for the interface (which we got the chance to see a bit in Copenhaguen), and the hope that might lead to the ultimate SDK we've all waited so long for (though this last point is a little speculation). Maybe, in the begginings of this trip (the simulation trip, that is), there was room for panic, pesimism... but now we know the devs, we know they love this as much as we do (the trip to Laboe comes to mind), we've heard directly from them what they want to accomplish... there will be certain disagreements, that's always bound to happen in game-design, can't be helped, but I think that, in the grand scheme of things, SH5 will be a big step forward, and, if it meets the standards of the 24th, I'll make sure they get our full support for a job well done (and a nice cold beer, if we meet again... I hope that happens in the US meet this year ). As for the standards of the rest of you, I can only tell you that the Devs are passionate in what they're doing, they want it to work as much as we do, and they love it. If, in the end, it doesn't become what we've expected of it, well, **** happens, blame the suits for not commiting a larger number of resources into the project, but the devs are truly commited for the project to succeed and for us to enjoy it, and so far, I've loved what I've seen. As I always say, support your Devs (ordinary guys like you and me), and they'll do their best to improve more and more our sim each time... non-stop criticise them, and they'll end up wondering why the hell are they still commited to releasing games for a bunch of ungrateful hardcore geeks, apart than for the money they get from it. Cheers, and keep drinking!

01-01-10, 09:24 PM	#2
Fish40 The Old Man Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Yonkers, NY U.S.A. Posts: 1,507 Downloads: 154 Uploads: 0	I've read the whole thread, and agree with most of the points mentioned. I probrably won't get the game straight away, not because I'm worried about bugs ect.., hell I preordered SH3&4. I'm gonna need a new rig to run this puppy, and since I just bought a co-op, well you get the picture. What I don't understand is why there seemed to be a rush to get these sims (SH3&4) on the shelves, obviously in an unfinished state, while a sim like Oleg Maddox's SOW has been in development for what seems forever. Has any of you seen the latest WIP screenshots? It seems no detail has been overlooked. Isn't the IL2 series put out by UBI? I don't get why it seems Oleg has all the time in the world to get it right, and the SH's needed patches for basic bugs. What am I missing?

01-02-10, 12:07 PM	#6
Fish40 The Old Man Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Yonkers, NY U.S.A. Posts: 1,507 Downloads: 154 Uploads: 0	Well that's the answer I guess. We need some independently wealthy programmers who love WWII subsims as much as we do, so they could develop a simulation at their own pace, overlooking nothing. Anybody out there hit the Mega-Ball lately?

01-02-10, 04:41 PM	#8
karamazovnew The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,403 Downloads: 151 Uploads: 0	I hate economics. If you wouldn't mind a small detour, let me tell you where we're heading. I live in a country where piracy is extremely common. To put it simple, it's not a phenomenon, it's a way of thinking. People have money to buy a PC or a console but not enough money to continue to buy games (or they just buy World of Warcraft and stop there). If it weren't for piracy, the IT market would simply collapse here. Playstation 2 and 3 have not yet been cracked globally. XBOX has been cracked though and many here prefer to buy a console for 1/3 of the money they spend on a PC and then get free games and even have enough money left to buy originals like L4D, MW2 and other multiplayer games. The fun about Xbox and original games is the community and achievements and DLC's and so on, so it's still safe. The game of the year on Gamespot is Demon's Souls, a game made exclusive for PS3. For many years now PC users have had to other wait for years to play ported games (GTA), or get very poor ports (like Force Unleashed). But right now we're seeing the beginning of the end for PC gamers. Not only is piracy much easier to keep in check but consoles also have the appeal of not having to upgrade them every year. Plus, a console can be a video player, music player, web browser and so on. Soon, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo and Sega will decide that it's better to join forces and create fixed and portable media centers. These consoles of the future will have an unified game engine protected in compiled files. Games will be much much smaller and easier to develop across different platforms. All platforms will communicate with each other. Even more, with the advent of 3d movies, soon we'll have a new hardware codec for movies and music. But you know what? They will be as protected as drugs. Right now it's not illegal to make an MP3 because each person has the right to record themselves. DIVX's are not illegal because each person has the right to record his weddings. Those new codecs however will be SECRET and illegal to break, transfer or own. These new file systems will be forced to run on individual consoles with unique ID's. Hard media will disappear. All media will be in downloadable format. We already have Steam and iTunes but they're not mandatory because not everybody has internet. 20 years ago the internet was NOTHING. Look at it now. Soon, every phone call, all TV channels everything will be in internet form. Free internet available everywhere. No more excuses that you don't have it. 20 years from now the internet will have 3 main threads. Media download and game connection, Browsing, and file transfer for firms. Completely separate with different protocols and IP's. No more viruses. Game development could turn into a free area where anybody can use a simple game designer and create anything. We already have XNA and it's amazing what one can do with it. But it requires time and skill. However, in the future, these game editors could be much much more powerful and easier to use. However this would require a PC or special compliers and a different free market. I highly doubt that the game industry will allow such a "mistake". Consoles will be shipped with a special credit card. Many don't use their cards on the net because they're afraid. New credit cards will be made, a new payment protocol, universal credits and different country currency rates. If in Romania sales suck because people don't have money to spend on games, music and video, they'll just lower the currency rate so people can buy more credits with the same money. So, you might say, what's wrong with this future? I'll tell you. Imagine a future where all games come in pieces and you pay for each. You want to play Silent Hunter? You buy the game, it gets transfered to your console. You want to play Type VII, you pay. You want to play Type IX, you pay. You want to get new torpedoes, you pay. You want to listen to a new gramophone song, you pay. Little by little by little. Regardless of how many games you play or how much music you listen to, or how many movies you see, you'll usually end up spending a lot. Commercials will be rampant and aggressive. Marketing will have free reign. Modding will be gone forever. They'll even create a fictitious way to make money, by playing. I have a friend who doesn't have a job, but plays WoW and sells money. He gets enough to make by. There will be many more ways: achievement hunting, competitions, support, game masters and so on. More and more will be stuck in a new economy which will be used as a regulator for the real economy. Gone will be the dream of free media, of a free global knowledge database. Very bleak indeed. But don't blame piracy for it. I blame piracy for making me stand more in front of the computer, time better spent on women or drinking with friends. If it weren't for piracy, I never would've played, and eventually bought, Silent Hunter 3 and 4. I wouldn't be waiting for SH5 for which I have already saved money for the collector's edition. In simple terms, I wouldn't even be here on this forum. So don't blame piracy. Blame profit. Blame economics. Blame this devil that money is. I may be an atheist but I say God bless Linux and modding communities. Here's the Star Trek vision come to life in the virtual world. A vision of using your potential to bring enjoyment to others. May it last forever PS: sorry about that... had it in me for a while.

01-02-10, 12:38 PM	#10
finchOU Samurai Navy Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 571 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 0	TreadJack warning! Martes86, Do you guys have a transcript of what you guys talked to the Dev team about? Did you get to ask questions? Was this predevelopment? How organized were the "subsim" group about pushing info? or was it more causal? I guess what I'm asking is what was conveyed by both you guys to the Devs and vice versa. That is all. Thanks

01-02-10, 01:05 PM	#11
Subtype Zero Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 19,998 Leagues under the sea Posts: 262 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	...pokes head out from under rock.... For those hoping that UBI will release a video featuring the sim at 100% geeked-out realism settings, forget it. Doing something like that would be potential marketing suicide, as it will freak out the nubies and casual gamers into thinking the game will be too complex to learn to play. Like it or not, the users of this forum are only a tiny, tiny minority of the potential buyers of the sim. Most new buyers will be most interested in fancy graphics, the new FPS interface, and X-box type features. UBI has to give them what they want, especially in the previews, or the game will not meet the publishers sales expectations.