RUM-139 VL-Asroc

[Kapitan]

The udaloy isnt really geared up for ASUW and yeah would require a sovremenny or something of the sort (slava kresta or kirov) but the fact is the udaloy has the ability to defend itself against ASM's while the perry doesnt (ok it has CIWS) the perry wouldnt be able to come with 4 or 5 missiles incoming (supersonic ones) it would be too quick for the CIWS and it wouldnt be able to target them if they were coming head on either.

The fact is the perry could be deemed more escort ship, its only saving grace is the helo's which wouldnt last long against many enamy ASUW units anyway before being shot down.
The only thing left for the perry is the 5 inch gun and with a range of just 10 miles the perry would probably already be dead before it got close enough to fire it.

The udaloy is a ASW destroyer so larger than the perry more heavily armed and able to conduct ASW and limited ASUW warfare being teamed with the sovremenny gives it full scope, the udaloy is also more capible in terms of manouvering ability speed and range uddy's can go for 8,500miles at 21 knots where the perry is 4,500 at 18 knots.

Udaloy doesnt number as much as the perry's it was never intended to, but to compliment the lack of numbers the russians use smaller grisha and krivak FFL's which are of similar size to perrys (krivak grishas are smaller) and to compliment them they have the nanchuka and trantul class.

Both udaloy and perry's need replacing the first perry was scrapped in 2005 and some are already laid up so they are showing the age now, the udaloys are mostly 20 years old a tiny bit newer than the perry but in need of replacing anyway same with the sovvy's.

I dont think many perrys will be around come 2015 a handful maybe.

[goldorak]

Kapitan I agree with you and in DW mission designers should take into account the particularities of the FFG.
Nontheless my experience has been that mission designers generally consider the frigate as a reduced Arleigh Burke and you wouldn't believe the missions where a poor frigate alone has to contend with several incoming volleys of 8 ASM just because you need to have subs vs frigates. Of course the frigate never has a chance for survival in the first place.
Its dumb, really dumb.

[Kapitan]

The only way to survive a volly like that is 1) turn quick weps launch on 2) be very very quick at launching the SM-2.

Reality lies that the perry against ever the 688's with VLS doesnt stand a chance it wouldnt even stand a chance against a russian trantul corvette the perry is a real limited ASW platform hence why the USN utalises it in littoral waters against things like kilo's because most kilo's dont carry ASM's its only now that its starting to be refitted to carry klub.

When designing the mission you need to consider exactly what the unit can do putting a perry against a kirov would be ludacrus, the perry is at home in a battle group where it is protected by ASUW capible units so it can concentrate on its task of ASW.

and the perrys operate well in a SAG only when put together with a burke or tico (or indeed any other ASUW unit).

What i dont understand is why dont navies build something like the type 23 which is full multi role, it has sea dart VLS for shooting down air threats and missiles it has harpoons for engaging ships, and helo for ASW operations as well as its sonar and also ship board torpedos.

if you put all that plus a bit more into one hull wouldnt it work out cheaper to build 50 of them have one manitinance crew one type of ship that can do everything than have 25 ASW units on manitnance crew and another mantinance crew for the ASUW ship?

Build everything into a cruiser hull and well you have one ship that does the job of 2.

[ASWnut101]

I'm going to go ahead and step into the frying pan here. I think you both are severely underestimating the potential of the Perry in DW. I disagree that it is a "lightweight" and that "it wouldn't even stand a chance against a Russian Trantul corvette." DW's Perry has been upgraded quite a bit from it's real-life counterpart...

The FFG's Mk-13 fires the SM-2, a supersonic missile that can attack anything that floats or flies. To be honest, most ships don't even get a chance to detect the missile before it hits them, and when you consider that it can be fired at large targets from more than 20 miles away, you should be able to remain safe from any naval gun (yes, even from an Udaloy-I's ridiculously long range 3.9-inch guns).

The CIWS can handle almost any threat (salvos of Silkworms to supersonic SS-N-19s), and can even stand up to a couple SS-N-27s. It's hardly the system you make it out to be. Oh, and did I mention it's automatic, so you can concentrate on using the SM-2?

Oh, it also carries TWO MH-60 helicopters, which you can use to engage sea, subsurface, and land targets, or use as an extended sensor platform all from more than 20 miles away.

The 3-inch gun is nothing to complain about, and it's 10 mile range is adequate. It's not likely that you'll hit a target from farther than that unless he enjoys making himself a target by driving in a straight line (hint, hint) for long periods of time.

Oh, and Kap, about that "ludicrous" idea of pitting a Perry against a Kirov, well Molon Labe had a video somewhere of him doing just that and winning without a scratch. Can't seem to find it, though...

[goldorak]

@ ASWnut101 : I didn't say the Perry didn't have any defenses. Of course it has a layered defense system.
The point is its survivability against a missile volley (or even getting hit by one single missile) is less than that of the Udaloy. And even then the Udaloy and Perry can't do squat against players shooting in your direction up to 10 missiles (in a completely unrealistic way but what can you do about it ? )
One small missile can completely disable a Perry, against an Udaloy it wouldn't happen. And in DW this affects playability in a negative sense.
Now in terms of long range sensors, yes you talk about the helos.
But guess what, up until last week the helos of the Perry were constrained to 20 nm because further away and you lose control. This limit is in Lwami, its in Alfa Tau and thank goodness was eliminated in DWX.
50 nm should provide a good ASW projection screen.

[ASWnut101]

I know you didn't say that. I never said you did say that it didn't ().

Anyway, we're still comparing apples to oranges here. The Perry is a frigate. The Udaloy is a destroyer. I hope it's more survivable, but even if it is, it does not in any way mean that the Perry's defenses are inadequate. What I'm getting across is that the Perry, with it's seemingly lacking armament, can still hold it's own against large threats such as missile-armed destroyers.

And with the whole "10 missiles" thing, again, unless they are advanced, sea-skimming supersonic ASMs (like the -27s), the Perry will still be able to defend itself. Chaff will lure some away, the SM-2s will pick off most at long range, letting the CIWS mop up the rest that get through.

One more thing. The whole "20 mile limit" on the helos only applies when they stop. When they move, they do so at greater altitude, thus extending the range at which you can use them. Besides, a sub at greater than 20 miles isn't much of a threat to you, and you aren't much of a threat to it, helo or no helo. Get in there and do your job, you're an ASW boat after all!

[Mau]

The only thing about the Perry in the stock version or LWAMI is that it is a fictional platform (nowhere can we find an OHP with only SM2 as SAM).

As I said in an earlier post, either we have one tha existed before i.e. DWX with the SM1 or add the ESSM as wel to make them an Adelaide class.

Against surface the SM1 can be use with the same capability as the SM2 based on the radar horizon range (approx 20NM). That platform is a thing of the past but can still be used in the game (talking US platforms of course).

So What I would like to see (personnally) is a choice of two drivable OHP: 1- Australian Adelaide (adding a weapons loadout of 32 ESSMs in addition with the SM2 - with no real need of seeing those leaving from the 8 vertical cells); or
2- Pre 2000 US OHP or Greek, Polish, Turkey... OHP with the DWX loadout (SM1).

..Just what I would like to see!!

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

One more thing. The whole "20 mile limit" on the helos only applies when they stop. When they move, they do so at greater altitude, thus extending the range at which you can use them. Besides, a sub at greater than 20 miles isn't much of a threat to you, and you aren't much of a threat to it, helo or no helo. Get in there and do your job, you're an ASW boat after all!

I'm with you on the beefed up AAW defense, but I really like the idea of being able to extend helo ops beyond 20-30nm. CZ's occur in DW only at 30nm intervals, so as it stands now it's quite impossible (RA notwithstanding) to prosecute a sub in a CZ, which might as well be an unimplemented feature. SSGNs are, by the way, a threat outside of 20nm.

Oh, and here's the replay of the Kirov getting wasted by the Perry.

[Kapitan]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

I'm going to go ahead and step into the frying pan here. I think you both are severely underestimating the potential of the Perry in DW. I disagree that it is a "lightweight" and that "it wouldn't even stand a chance against a Russian Trantul corvette." DW's Perry has been upgraded quite a bit from it's real-life counterpart...

The FFG's Mk-13 fires the SM-2, a supersonic missile that can attack anything that floats or flies. To be honest, most ships don't even get a chance to detect the missile before it hits them, and when you consider that it can be fired at large targets from more than 20 miles away, you should be able to remain safe from any naval gun (yes, even from an Udaloy-I's ridiculously long range 3.9-inch guns).

The CIWS can handle almost any threat (salvos of Silkworms to supersonic SS-N-19s), and can even stand up to a couple SS-N-27s. It's hardly the system you make it out to be. Oh, and did I mention it's automatic, so you can concentrate on using the SM-2?

Oh, it also carries TWO MH-60 helicopters, which you can use to engage sea, subsurface, and land targets, or use as an extended sensor platform all from more than 20 miles away.

The 3-inch gun is nothing to complain about, and it's 10 mile range is adequate. It's not likely that you'll hit a target from farther than that unless he enjoys making himself a target by driving in a straight line (hint, hint) for long periods of time.

Oh, and Kap, about that "ludicrous" idea of pitting a Perry against a Kirov, well Molon Labe had a video somewhere of him doing just that and winning without a scratch. Can't seem to find it, though...

I was compairing real life not to DW but in DW with a good skipper berhind the helm yes its possible because the kirov and like wise the burkes and ticos havnt got the art of mass launch, ie where they fire everything at once.

Yes the CIWS is fully automatic im aware i drive the FFG as my main platfrom in game but it does have limits one thing i did learn through is missiles in a salvo if you take one out it can destroy the others too effectivly blowing one up you get rid of say 3 or 4 others in the salvo.

the kirov if we had the game set to real life specs dealing with 24 supersonic cruise missiles from 20 miles plus the kirovs main guns wouldnt stand a chance kirovs purpose is to anhialate anything that floats or flys.

perry is a good ASW platform but compairing them to a kirov or a burke is like trying to compair chalk and cheese, perry is not a primary ASUW platform and the kirov is not a primary ASW unit so therefore both have weaknesses.