US is the no. 1 polluter in the world

[Skybird]

Sounds like this: we are rich, we live a fat live, and we do not see a reason why we should stop that if the others could as well live with much less than we claim for ourselves. this is even more true since the US also is the greatest consumer of goods and of energy and production ressources, and the greatest producer of waste as well.

Living style is all what it all is about. And that is one of the reasons why climate scepticism is waged like a war with all dirty tricks and cheats possible.

It's a conflict of sheer material egoism and egocentrism. And of course the rich do not like to be told and being fingerpointed at.

In the end the fiugures stand: 21% of global CO2 polution made in america, 20% made in China. Just that China reaches that with almost four times as many people in population size. What makes their living style currently still being far more moderate, even compared to Germany. The average German still produces twice as much CO2 per year than a Chinese.

I was surprised to see France scoring so relatively low. i would have estimated them to rate higher, in the realm of Germany and the UK.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

On some level I agree with you. But I also think there should be some kind of common economic base from where a country like China should build it's nation and it's industry on. If China was a few years ago and in some ways still is a developing nation then the starting off point is very different then with the US.

However I do agree that China and whole Far-East Asia is problematic in that they have very low environmental standards coupled with a very large population clamouring for higher standards of living which is causing increasing amounts of pollution. But this is also a problem caused partly by western industry that outsources there because of low limitations for pollution etc.

Yes, China is a problem. Some of it created by the US by outsourcing. Bush was the worst President when it comes to pollution (air, ocean, all). I can not argue that statement. As you stated, everything ties in with the economic situation or lack their of. I think the really question is not who is the worst offender but who is really attempting to become non-polluters or at the very least, better to the environment. The US automanufactures have been at if for over 25 years. I think they have done a fine job. Our cars are check yearly for emission problems. At least in my state. We might seem to be bullheaded about it but strides are being made to correct the problem.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

And yet, our sky's do not look like China's. In my opinion, the proof is in the end result, not in statistics.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Have you been to asia? do you know their way of life? Do you know how many drive? Work in factories? Burn coal to heat their homes? You do know they make up nearly 20% of the worlds population?

Yeah, damn lies, cheating, betrayal! Zeter und Mordio! Traraaa und Brimborium! It's all a conspiracy! Nobody loves us! It's all antiamericanism! I feel so unhappy! Nobody understands me. Mamaaaa...

It cannot be what should not be.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Sounds like this: we are rich, we live a fat live, and we do not see a reason why we should stop that if the others could as well live with much less than we claim for ourselves. this is even more true since the US also is the greatest consumer of goods and of energy and production ressources, and the greatest producer of waste as well.

Living style is all what it all is about. And that is one of the reasons why climate scepticism is waged like a war with all dirty tricks and cheats possible.

It's a conflict of sheer material egoism and egocentrism. And of course the rich do not like to be told and being fingerpointed at.

In the end the fiugures stand: 21% of global CO2 polution made in america, 20% made in China. Just that China reaches that with almost four times as many people in population size. What makes their living style currently still being far more moderate, even compared to Germany. The average German still produces twice as much CO2 per year than a Chinese.

I was surprised to see France scoring so relatively low. i would have estimated them to rate higher, in the realm of Germany and the UK.

Why yes Skybird....I think of all of that when I drive my Volkswagen Passat 4 cylinder turbo. Guess what, I traded in a Lincoln V8 for this car. Better gas mileage and less emission. I do not know what TV shows you watch but it is not living high on the hog as you believe it to be. Not everyone has a Hummer Curbside once a week my recycables are in a bin to picked up. So, please with blanket coverage that we all live fat and happy in the US. People are concerned. As far as consumers. Well, if we do not consume it seems the world goes into an economic tailspin. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

. But this is also a problem caused partly by western industry that outsources there because of low limitations for pollution etc.

This isn't a nationality problem, if you boil it down, the problem is executive greed. There are many who would NOT like to have their jobs oursourced to some chinese sweatshop.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Sounds like this: we are rich, we live a fat live, and we do not see a reason why we should stop that if the others could as well live with much less than we claim for ourselves. ........

No, what this all sounds like to me is a little game called, "Pin the tail on the donkey" by some who really dislike the US. In every post, there is an anti US punchline. People hating the US is not new to me. I've been told to my face everything ranging from "Yankee go home" to "No Americans here!". I've been spat at, denied service in resturants, and shunned because of my nationality while overseas. So anti US sentiments do not break my heart. But really, is it neccessary to validate your opinions with statistics? I get it.. really.

[Sailor Steve]

Gee, I don't own a car at all. And when I did it was a 32/44 mpg Ford Escort wagon. I would like to get my poor old 50+ mpg Kawasaki running again, but it's too cold to ride it right now. Ditto my unlimited mpg bicycle.

But, if you're really serious about fixing the pollution problems, throw out your computer, phone and television, and anything else made of plastic, shut of your electricity if it comes from a coal-fired plant, and live in a tent - or else you're not doing your part!

Ok, this is as far as I've gotten so far looking for recent info about pollution on UN's pages.

http://www.who.int/topics/environmen.../en/index.html

Haven't yet perused through any numbers but thought I'd share it with you anyway.

Well here's something.

UNITED STATES
Pollution: By far the world's biggest polluter, emitting 64.2bn tonnes of carbon between 1997 and 2007.
Position: Under President Bush, used to be the world's villain blocking global action. Now, under President Obama, things look better.
Promise: To cut carbon emissions 17per cent by 2020, compared to 2005.
Politics: Facing major opposition to pollution cuts from fossil fuel industries and their political cheerleaders in Congress.
Don't ask: "Hey guys, why not give up all those hummers that are heating up the planet?"

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n42802396/

[Platapus]

I guess the first thing is to do is define and bound the problem

1. What is "pollution" (and what is not)?
2. How does one measure "pollution"?
3. How does one collect the measurements across an area (earth)?
4. What is the method for analyzing the measurements?

Until those are answered, I can't opine whether one country is #1 or not.

[Task Force]

Im just wondering... whats this thing with OneToughHerring... and this strange hate of the United States...

Just one question... have you ever been to the states, or do you just go over what you hear on the web...

just wondering...

yep, we create polution, just like everyone else... but when you look at it, were a huge country, were gonna make a large ammount of polution... smaller countrys= less...

oah and china...



yea, weve got smog... but they have it worse... just think what its doing to the atmosphere...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Well, if we do not consume it seems the world goes into an economic tailspin. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Yes, it is heavy a burden you have to carry. All that much consummation really eats away life quality and makes you unsensitive to the easy, the simple joys of life. Maybe the third world delivering those ressources and second world producers of items you buy, should pay you compensation for your sufferings?!

[CaptainHaplo]

OK - if your going to go so far as to think the UN is an "unbiased" source of data - your arguement is already flawed. The UN is a political organization, and as such, has a power structure that is out to pull down any other power there is. The US - being the lone superpower in the world, and an outspoken critic (both with words and manpower) of situations in the world, has earned the ire of that political body.

So quoting data from an organization that wants America to "shut up, sit down and open your wallet" is not going to go very far unless it is corroborated with data from more objective sources.

The World Health Organization post you made proves that it is neither informed, nor objective.

Don't ask: "Hey guys, why not give up all those hummers that are heating up the planet?"

Lets see - the latest DOT info on record I could find after a quick search dated from 2004 - so they are a bit old - but not terribly so. Lets take a look at what it showed us, shall we?

The resident population - 294 Million
The number of licensed drivers - 199 Million
Number of vehicles - 237 Million

So first off - nearly one third of the population is/was either walking - or carpooling in some fashion. That's a pretty good number in any society. Only 1 out of 5 drivers on average had more than one vehicle that they owned - meaning 4 out of 5 people were "evilly consuming" only one vehicle that is a necessity to do things like go to work or get food. Funny, the "consumerism" bias makes it sound like all Americans are and were living "high on the hog" - when the data shows that the vast majority were consuming only what is necessary. One more fact that shows that far away, uninformed picture is untrue - though I doubt it will matter to those who have no place for truth in their world view.

Oh - as for "when are we giving up our hummers" - the Hummer brand sold a grand total of 27,485 vehicles in 2008. In the first nine months of 2009, it was a mere 8,193 - so the total for 2009 will likely be under 10,000. The total number of vehicles sold in the US in 2008? Roughly 13.2 Million total.

So the total "hummer" sales equated to all of .2 percent of of vehicle sales in the US. Most rational people would say that the numbers from 2008 - and the further drastic reduction seen in 2009 would indicate that the US already HAD given up its hummers - when the question was asked. But the question wasn't asked from a basis of fact - it was a question asked with the purpose of inflaming those with an already formed idea, because nothing gets someone going when you feed their view, regardless of whether or not its an intellectually honest question or not.

Sorry - but this alone demonstrates that the W.H.O. is simply not unbiased.

It also shows that this "American just consume more than their share" can be proven to not be the case - at least in the matter of vehicle ownership. When 1 out of 3 americans do not own a vehicle - and 4 out of 5 that do only own one, I fail to see how we somehow are consuming so much more than everyone else - except maybe third world countries.

Links follow.

2004 Federal data: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/ohim/hs04/htm/dlchrt.htm

Total US vehicle sales for 2008:
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/ohim/hs04/htm/dlchrt.htm

Hummer Sales of 2008
http://ask.cars.com/2009/01/hummer-sales.html

Hummer sales in 2009
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchin...nt_8773950.htm

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Our cars are check yearly for emission problems. At least in my state.

Which is the BEST GODDAMN STATE IN THE UNION!!!!

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Yes, it is heavy a burden you have to carry. All that much consummation really eats away life quality and makes you unsensitive to the easy, the simple joys of life. Maybe the third world delivering those ressources and second world producers of items you buy, should pay you compensation for your sufferings?!

Oh, I'm sorry Skybird, I did not make the rules. I'm just required to live by them. Simply put, so do you. Shameful for you to say this as VW makes cars in friggin Mexico....yes sir, no issue there in this developing backwards country. VW is represented in all 5 continents. China makes parts for the cars. Watch the stones inside that glass house you are living in. BTW, how would you on the other side of the world know anything about me becoming 'insenstive' about the simple joys of life? You have no idea and it will remain so for a person who openly admits to wanting to live in a place were you do not see much of people. You really warm the cockles of my heart with your dissertation concerning third world countries. BTW, these countries are lesser developed. Get it right.

You just posted his today;

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...129_521712.htm

[AVGWarhawk]

But, if you're really serious about fixing the pollution problems, throw out your computer, phone and television, and anything else made of plastic, shut of your electricity if it comes from a coal-fired plant, and live in a tent - or else you're not doing your part!

This would seem to be the answer Steve but our lives are based around these things. Urban sprawl, the commute to work, etc. Well except for Skybird. His country does not stink nor does the manufactures seek lower wage earners to build their cars.