Winter War 70th anniversary

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Yea well, why did Stalin send Ukrainian etc. troops unsuited to winter warfare in summer gear in a suicidal frontal march which wasn't even an attack. Usually when attacking there should be a 10/1 superiority in numbers, given those odds the results weren't that amazing.

Most of those troops where from northern parts of Russia and equipped accordingly, some even from Siberia. For exsample the Dolin ski brigade that was complitely annihilated.

I think 1/3 is a more common ratio mentioned in attack, wich the russian exceeded in most places. They had the 1/10 ration and even more in most weapons. Like with circa 7000 tanks and 4000 airplanes still in the end of the war against Finland.

It really makes you rather pathetic when you say, "given those odds the results weren't that amazing".

On 11/30/1939 These forces were in the Leningrad Military District:

14th Army- based at Murmansk/Kandalaksha (hqs from 33rd RC)
14th, 52nd Rifle, and 104th Mt. Rifle Divisions

9th Army- 47th RC- 122nd, 163rd Rifle Divisions
Special RC- 54th Mt. Rifle Division

8th Army- 1st RC- 139th, 155th Rifle Divisions
56th RC- 18th, 56th, 168th Rifle Divisions
In Reserve- 75th Rifle Division

7th Army- 50th RC- 90th, 142nd Rifle Divisions
35th Tank Brigade
19th RC- 24th, 43rd, 70th Rifle Divisions
40th Tank Brigade
10th TC- 1st, 13th Tank Brigades
15th Mot. Rifle Brigade
In Reserve- 49th, 123rd, 138th, 150th Rifle Divisions
20th Tank Brigade

Other Forces in LMD- 65th RC- on Estonian border Narva/Pskov
11th, 16th Rifle Divisions
88th Rifle Division- at Arkhangelsk


These are the Divisions that came for the War, from other MD's

52nd RD- from Belorussian MD
122nd RD- from Belorussian MD
163rd RD- from Moscow MD
139th RD- from Belorussia MD
155th RD- from Kalinin MD
138th RD- from Kiev MD
150th RD- from Belorussia MD

Not yet mentioned the 44th RD is on it's way from Kiev MD

Also these Divisions had just been created in the Fall of 1939

88th RD- in Leningrad MD
104th Mt. RD- in Leningrad MD
168th RD- in Leningrad MD
123rd RD- in Kalinin MD, and just moved to LMD
142nd RD- in Kalinin MD, and just moved to LMD

RKKA divisions added during the Winter War.

During 12/1939- 136th Rd. from Moscow MD
4th Rd. from Byelorussian MD
164th Rd. from Kalinin MD
34th Tank Br.
10th Rifle Corps HQs from Byelorussian MD
13th Army HQs from Leningrad MD
47th, 49th, 116th, 136th, 311th Artillery Rgts.

During 1/1940- 84th Mot. Rd. from Moscow MD
113th Rd. from Byelorussian MD
80th Rd. from Kiev MD
62nd Rd. from Kiev MD
50th Rd. from Byelorussian MD
17th Mot. Rd. from Moscow MD
8th Rd. from Byelorussian MD
60th Rd. from Kiev MD
11th Rd. from Leningrad MD
168th, 375th, 495th Artillery Rgts.
8th Rifle Corps HQs from Odessa MD
15th Rifle Corps HQs from Kiev MD
23rd Rifle Corps HQs from Byelorussian MD
28th Cavalry Rgt.

During 2/1940- 95th Mot. Rd. from Odessa MD
7th Rd. from Kiev MD
51st Rd. from Odessa MD
86th Mot. Rd. from Volga MD
42nd Mot. Rd. from Leningrad MD
173rd Rd. from Volga MD
25th Mot/Cavalry Division from Leningrad MD
37th Mot. Rd. from Siberian MD
87th Rd. from Kiev MD
97th Rd. from Kiev MD
128th Rd. from Ural MD

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

And once the interim peace was achieved why did the Finns start the Continuation war with the general intent of prolonging World War 2.

1941 the attacker was still USSR and the general intent of Finland was to get back what was stolen.

It was USSR that started the WW2 with the general intent to invade Europe and the world.

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Most of those troops where from northern parts of Russia and equipped accordingly, some even from Siberia. For exsample the Dolin ski brigade that was complitely annihilated.

And yet when the Soviets got their military in shape the situation changed considerably. Also, the average soldiers weren't interested in fighting against Finland, hence partly the low morale of the troops. Finns on the other hand deduce this to about the inferiority of the Soviets.

Personally I can't see anything to be proud about being the ally of the biggest war criminal of recorded history.

I think 1/3 is a more common ratio mentioned in attack, wich the russian exceeded in most places. They had the 1/10 ration and even more in most weapons. Like with circa 7000 tanks and 4000 airplanes still in the end of the war against Finland.

It really makes you rather pathetic when you say, "given those odds the results weren't that amazing".

Yea because they weren't. When the Soviets had a genuine interest in achieving a goal like, for example, winning the World War, they achieved it. A sideshow like the wars against Finland weren't really that important and served more as a kind of prelude to the real fighting which was to come.

I think if anything the wars that Finland fought against the Soviets only served to keep the World War going on longer then necessary keeping the Holocaust and all the other needles bloodshed continuing longer then necessary. And Finland had it's own concentration camps where Soviet civilians perished by the thousands.

1941 the attacker was still USSR

Nope.

and the general intent of Finland was to get back what was stolen.

With the help of Nazi-Germany Finland wanted to build a Greater Finland. Didn't work out.

It was USSR that started the WW2 with the general intent to invade Europe and the world.

lolwat?

[Dowly]

OTH, you're lack of knowledge of your own country's history will amaze the generations to come.

PS. I see you still havent taken my advice to consider changing your sources. Please do it as soon as possible.

Like what for example? About the Finnish concentration camps? They did exist.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Like what for example? About the Finnish concentration camps? They did exist.

Yes, and nobody has said otherwise. What is your point?

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Just remember that these camps detained the Reds (aka the Communists) at the end of the Finnish Civil War, not in the way many people think concentration camps where used for in Nazi Germany. That and the Soviets where very inferior to the Finns in battle. For instance note the PPHS-41 SMG. This SMG first appered as the PPD-40 which was a Soviet copy of the Finnish SMG which is in the second photo that I posted. The Soviets used its massive number of troops, tanks and planes to try to roll over the Finns, and the Soviets might have used the best troops that they had in that region but not the best equipment or tactics. For example the Soviets used the T-26 instead of tanks like the T-34, using the improper uniforms in winter conditions brown istead of white, ect, ect.
The Soviets greatly underestimated the Finns in there tactics, skill in improvising weapons(Molotov Cocktail named after the Soviet Foreign Minister V.M. Molotov, and the Skipole Knife), and the the greatest weapon the Finns had was the knowing thier own countrys terrain.

[HunterICX]

Not only where they ill equiped but also poorly led due that the great purge in the 30's eliminated any competent/capable military leadership they had.

HunterICX

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Yes, and nobody has said otherwise. What is your point?

I feel sort of like I'm watching an argument between two Americans arguing about our Civil War from different sides, but not having enough information to understand!!!!

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

And yet when the Soviets got their military in shape the situation changed considerably. Also, the average soldiers weren't interested in fighting against Finland, hence partly the low morale of the troops. Finns on the other hand deduce this to about the inferiority of the Soviets.

Your cathing straws.
This is getting ridiculous, you really have to be indoctrinated not to see the inferiority of the Soviets in this war.
Or the whole system actually, compared to western democracy, they ultimately lost.

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Personally I can't see anything to be proud about being the ally of the biggest war criminal of recorded history.

That would be who?

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

When the Soviets had a genuine interest in achieving a goal like, for example, winning the World War, they achieved it. A sideshow like the wars against Finland weren't really that important and served more as a kind of prelude to the real fighting which was to come.

So it was a only a clever strategy to loose for a few years and need support from allies to start winning later.
And great deception to deploy most of its armed forces against Finland to hide how it wasnt very important.

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

I think if anything the wars that Finland fought against the Soviets only served to keep the World War going on longer then necessary keeping the Holocaust and all the other needles bloodshed continuing longer then necessary. And Finland had it's own concentration camps where Soviet civilians perished by the thousands.

Finland didnt start WW2, Finland didnt fight for or against anything but Finland.
Those were the cards dealt to us.
And the people in charge did their best, in the interest of the citizens on Finland, based on the knowledge at that time.

Personally i think you are a snotty prat leeching out of a state that most citizens are proud to be part in contributing and building.

Oh I'm sorry, I must have missed this. Allow me to retort.

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Your cathing straws.
This is getting ridiculous, you really have to be indoctrinated not to see the inferiority of the Soviets in this war.
Or the whole system actually, compared to western democracy, they ultimately lost.

Yes but the Soviets did win the war and the USSR came to an end only after they themselves decided to put an end to their system of government. It was socialism that whooped nazi's butt, that and the eastern 'untermench'.

That would be who?

Finland of course, with Nazi-Germany.

So it was a only a clever strategy to loose for a few years and need support from allies to start winning later.
And great deception to deploy most of its armed forces against Finland to hide how it wasnt very important.

No it wasn't a clever strategy, it was just the Soviet military on the road to becoming the winner of WW2 and defeating the instigator of the war the west helped to build and was unable to defeat by itself.

Finland didnt start WW2, Finland didnt fight for or against anything but Finland.
Those were the cards dealt to us.
And the people in charge did their best, in the interest of the citizens on Finland, based on the knowledge at that time.

Personally i think you are a snotty prat leeching out of a state that most citizens are proud to be part in contributing and building.

Why did Finland give it's own citizens and also pow's to extermination camps in Germany? Why did Finland have it's own concentration camps? Why did so many pow's die in Finland's pow camps?

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

OTH the concentration camps that the Finns used where used to hold Finnish Citizens who had anything to do with communism. As for Prisoners of War where held in proper pow camps in accordance with the Genva Covention. As how the Finnish Military treated theses pows is a different story.
@ Torvlad Von Mansee I'm a Finnish-American on my Mothers side and both of my Grandparents lived through both the Winter War and the Continuation War as civilans after fleeing their homes in Karelia before the Soviets attacked.

No, I'm talking about the camps that were used to hold Soviet citizens. Wikipedia.

I used to live close by to a place where there used to be a pow camp for Soviet pow's during WW2. Today there is just a big cemetary there that holds the thousand + prisoners who perished in that camp. There used to be mistreatment of the prisoners there, 'beating allies' where camp guards used to beat the prisoners who ran down a gauntlet of the guards who were beating them. Prisoners died from various causes.

It's true that during Winter and Continuation wars Finnish people with leftist or alledled leftist connections and/or sympathies were put in prison, in special containment etc.

[Happy Times]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Times
Your cathing straws.
This is getting ridiculous, you really have to be indoctrinated not to see the inferiority of the Soviets in this war.
Or the whole system actually, compared to western democracy, they ultimately lost.

Yes but the Soviets did win the war and the USSR came to an end only after they themselves decided to put an end to their system of government. It was socialism that whooped nazi's butt, that and the eastern 'untermench'.

They won with the help of deliveries raw materials and products from USA, without it they would have lost.


USSR set out openly to defeat the western democratic market economies, in a battle of the systems and ideologies.
It developed into Cold War, they lost.

Quote:
That would be who?

Finland of course, with Nazi-Germany.

The Communist Party and USSR 1917-1991 takes that title.

Why did Finland give it's own citizens and also pow's to extermination camps in Germany? Why did Finland have it's own concentration camps? Why did so many pow's die in Finland's pow camps?

Finland didnt give any of its citizens to German extermination camps.
The POWS were traded for Finns, Karelians and Ingrians from German occupied areas.
Concentration camps were common in all countries during ww2.
Malnitrution, not forced labour or executions.