and they call us "Astro turfers"

[Aramike]

Here is an idea - reform MEDICARE so you don't waste Billions - show the American people that you can be good stewards of a health care related program - show us that you can create an efficient, government overseen medical program, and THEN start discussing how to use that same success to make health care better for even more people.

But the government takeover of health care can't wait - because its more about a power grab than it is looking out for the American People.

Like August, agreed. Well put and pragmatic.

Haplo, make your mind up.
If you want to try and dodge the issue by claiming its an association and as such not valid, then why on earth do you bring in an association and claim it backs up your point.
In case you don't understand.
AHIP is according to you not a valid example as it is an ASSOCIATION of health care providers.
Yet Blue Cross Blue Shield is a valid example despite being an ASSOCIATION of health care providers.

[CaptainHaplo]

Tribesman - stop playing semantics when you know the difference. Unless of course your incapable of understanding the difference.

AHIP is an association in the classic sense, a group of divergent and INDEPENDANT companies that can speak through the association as a collective, singular voice. AHIP does NOT offer or provide any insurance to individual, private citizens, because that is NOT its purpose.

BCBS on the other hand, is an INSURANCE PROVIDER. While it is made up of members that are under contract - they must conform to the rules laid down by BCBS in the coverage they provide, how they deal with doctors, etc. In essence, to the consumer - BCBS is simply one large company.

The fact you try to confuse on semantics - over a word that both use but that is clearly different in their meaning, shows how desperate you are to NOT discuss the real topic - that reform is supported, but not this massive change everything and let the government run it all plan.

Its these kinds of tactics that make the average american look at liberals in power and shake their head. You can't win on facts, so you try everything you can to keep from having to deal with facts. Argue semantics, try and divert the conversation, call out people for having double standards, regardless of if its true, just to keep from having to deal with the facts. And yet your probably trying to figure out why the independants who elected this Congress and President have backed away from the support they once gave.

You can't answer the issue of "why not reform Medicare first" and show some success and build trust with the American people. You can't answer why it must all be done in one fell swoop via legistlation that none of those that support it have actually read. You don't have an answer for the fact that the people that have read it are against it. All you know is its something put out by "your side" - so reality, fact and honest discussion be damned.

That is why THIS health care reform is unlikely to happen. A much more reasonable, affordable plan will end up with support. Because not everyone is as willing as you to wear blinders and follow with ignorance.

*editted to correct 2 spelling errors.

You can't answer the issue of "why not reform Medicare first" and show some success and build trust with the American people.

Is that because the insurance providers who are pretty much cleaning up with the current Medicare program are spending lots of money to ensure that popliticians either block legislation on reform or only approve "reform" that doesn't actually reform.
Sorry you will have to remind me. Who are the people who are at meetings objecting to reform of Medicare?
You know the "Keep the stinking government out of my medicare" sort of thing.
If I am not mistaken thats some of the teabagging wingnuts isn't it.
But OK every little group has loonies.
So what about the political parties.
Which party has a good number of its politicians taking a stance that Medicare reform is simply not on the table at all?

Its these kinds of tactics that make the average american look at liberals in power and shake their head. You can't win on facts, so you try everything you can to keep from having to deal with facts. Argue semantics, try and divert the conversation

Would that be winning on facts like calling policies nazi and communist at the same time as well as being unconstitutional and even traitorous and talking nonsense about death panels, euthenasia and illegal immigrants?

actually its the whole mess of american political debate that makes the world shake its head.

Because not everyone is as willing as you to wear blinders and follow with ignorance.

Thats funny as throughout the long discourse of the various healthcare topics people who object to any of the current proposed bills have displayed astounding levels of ignorance on the subject.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Who are the people who are at meetings objecting to reform of Medicare?
You know the "Keep the stinking government out of my medicare" sort of thing.
If I am not mistaken thats some of the teabagging wingnuts isn't it.

Ummm no.

Its all irrelevant anyhow at this point there going to vote on it anyhow.

Reid: Senate Finance Committee to Vote on Health Bill Tuesday

Congressional analysts gave a boost Wednesday to the Senate Finance Committee's health care bill, concluding that it would cost $829 billion over the next 10 years -- under the $900 billion target set by President Obama.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...h-care-reform/

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Is that because the insurance providers who are pretty much cleaning up with the current Medicare program are spending lots of money to ensure that popliticians either block legislation on reform or only approve "reform" that doesn't actually reform.

Again - a baseless accusation thrown out without fact to back it up. In fact - the whole statement is ludicrous - because PRIVATE INSURANCE companies don't make ANY money on medicare - medicare is administered by firms who deal direct between the government and the doctor - but they ain't INSURANCE firms. Medicare pays doctors for providing care - Medicare IS government insurance. Medicare doesn't pay insurance companys ya goof. The fraud is in the companies that administrate medicare, as well as hospitals and doctors that claim things never done. Neither has anything to do with the "BIG BAD EVIL INSURANCE COMPANIES".

Be careful - your ignorance is showing again.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Sorry you will have to remind me. Who are the people who are at meetings objecting to reform of Medicare? You know the "Keep the stinking government out of my medicare" sort of thing. If I am not mistaken thats some of the teabagging wingnuts isn't it.

Well you would be mistaken - but thats not a real suprise to most people. The people objecting to reform (and NOT just of Medicare - which you are intentionally mischaracterizing) are those that have taken the time to read some of the proposals. Something which many of the liberal legislators supporting "reform" have admitted they haven't done, using the fact that its to complicated for them to understand as an excuse.
So your logic is that having read something, researched it, and coming to an informed decision that such a proposal is bad for them personally, then choosing to tell the government representative their view, makes them a "teabagging wingnut". Well, here in the good ole USA, we call it exercising our rights and responsibilities as citizens entitled to self-governance - For the People, BY the People. Yes, I know that concept is hard to grasp - but its why we are truly the most free people in some way - in the world.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

So what about the political parties. Which party has a good number of its politicians taking a stance that Medicare reform is simply not on the table at all?

Good question. You infer its the minority party. But yet again you leave innuendo out there - instead of facts. I haven't heard any legislator, on either side of the aisle - say that they are unwilling to look at reform of Medicare - or health care in general. Got a link, or should we again just chalk it up to you making things up?

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Would that be winning on facts like calling policies nazi and communist at the same time as well as being unconstitutional and even traitorous and talking nonsense about death panels, euthenasia and illegal immigrants?

Again with the twisting. Someone brings a swastika sign (with a picture of the President on it) showing their personal comparison of how CONTROLLING government looks to be turning into - and somehow you generalize that to everyone who disagrees. As for "death panels" and the like - if it wasn't really there, how come that language that made people so concerned got stricken? After all - if it wasn't true - no need to remove it. Once again we see the pitiful attempts by the left to smear anyone who actual READS what is being proposed. Instead, leftists like you would rather us just shut up and accept whatever the liberals in power want to do, and our rights be damned. Again - its not happening, and its maddening to those who want to control everything, and can't. So go ahead, insult those who choose to be informed. It shows what the EXTREME left is all about. *I note extreme left, because some liberals actually are NOT whack jobs - just like some conservatives aren't. And some on both sides are. Unfortunately - its the wacko's that got elected, by sounding centrist.*

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Thats funny as throughout the long discourse of the various healthcare topics people who object to any of the current proposed bills have displayed astounding levels of ignorance on the subject.

Ah yes - as compared to those so well informed politicians that support this reform but admit to not even reading it.

Liberal stance - "You have read the proposal - that means your ignorant. If you have no clue what it says, you are educated and nuanced."

That "logic" is what is astounding.

[Aramike]

Good post, Haplo. On the mark! But be forewarned - Tribesman will only come back with some questions that his Google results precipitate. You know, such as: "what did X say about Y"?

Smart people just make the point, but he's kind of, well, not that, so he likes to maintain a sense of ambiguity as to allow spin and retreat. Heh, I always get a little bit of a chuckle when I think about how he confuses "interpretation" with "context", followed with his insults about how everyone but him and his ilk are idiots.

When I was in elementary school, there was a boy in the "special class" who loved to call everyone "retards". The irony was sad then. Now it's just funny.

I'm just warning you, brother...

The people objecting to reform (and NOT just of Medicare - which you are intentionally mischaracterizing) are those that have taken the time to read some of the proposals.

That is a generalisation which you are unable to establish.

Someone brings a swastika sign (with a picture of the President on it) showing their personal comparison of how CONTROLLING government looks to be turning into - and somehow you generalize that to everyone who disagrees.

errrrrr...no , that is you applying a generalisation to someone elses post where there is none.
So is it a case of you making a generalisation and thinking that others are following the same flawed logic that you do and then working your responses from a false premise ?

[magic452]

Have a clue. If you is on the same page as some of those rednecks then beware , there is a really valid conspiracy theory that the evil feds is going to burn your home down all the way to the chassis

They may not burn down my house but they are sure picking my pocket