Obama punishes small country opposed to dictatorial ex-president

[Skybird]

The question is will 30-40% of the population supporting him manage to overthrow 60-70% of the population opposing him, so that violation of the constitution, ignorring the state's leading bodies, and ignorring the request of the church to stop starting trouble finally will see illegitimate and undeserved reward. The question is if this hostile act of Brazil that by supporting this stunt now has joined the intelligence operations of Bolivia and Venezuela to destabilise Honduras and establish another Chavez there will even be rewareded and make honduras fall to the Chavezian union.

They should abandon diplomatic relations with Brazil (and Bolivia and Venezuela anyway) for these hostile nations deeds, especially the infiltration and destabilisation done by Venezuela and Bolivia in the past 2 years or even longer border to declarations of war and are a direct attack on the national integrity and souvereignity of Honduras. They should recall all their ambassador and staff from Brazil (and Venezuela), give the Brazilian staff in Honduras 24 hours to leave the country, and when they move to the airport sack Chavez' clown and put him on trial for high treason and abuse of the office and violating the constitution.

so that violation of the constitution,

The coup plotters who formed their own government which no country recognises as legitimate are in violation of the constitution.

They should abandon diplomatic relations with Brazil (and Bolivia and Venezuela anyway)

Ah diplomatic relations, that goes back to the opening post where 4 people from Honduras had their existing diplomatic visas taken away because they are now part of a government that is not recognised as a legitimate government which puts them in a diplomatic relations limbo. So threatening to sever relations with governments that don't recognise you isn't really an effective form of leverage.

They should recall all their ambassador and staff from Brazil (and Venezuela), give the Brazilian staff in Honduras 24 hours to leave the country,

Sorry Skybird , how many countries have already pulled out their staff from the country with which they no longer give diplomatic recognition to and also removed diplomatic recognition for that countries staff in their nation?
Threatening to take your football home when its already been punctured and thrown in the bin by the other players is a pretty pointless gesture.

[August]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The coup plotters who formed their own government which no country recognises as legitimate are in violation of the constitution.

Or so you keep claiming anyways...

Or so you keep claiming anyways...

Since you havn't read the constitution you can't make any valid comment on the constitutionality of the actions can you August.

[August]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Since you havn't read the constitution you can't make any valid comment on the constitutionality of the actions can you August.

Actually that was my argument about you Tribesman. Unlike you I'm not claiming special knowledge of the Honduran Constitution. Special knowledge you have so far failed to demonstrate.

[Skybird]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8279243.stm

A top US diplomat says deposed Honduran President Manuel Zelaya was "irresponsible and foolish" to return before a settlement had been reached. Lewis Amselem, US ambassador to the Organization of American States (OAS), said Washington had asked Mr Zelaya not to return because of potential unrest.

(...)

"The return of Zelaya [without] an agreement is irresponsible and foolish. He should cease and desist from making wild allegations and from acting as though he were starring in an old movie," said Mr Amselem at an emergency meeting of the OAS.

"Having chosen, with outside help, to return on his own terms, President Zelaya and those who have facilitated his return, bear particular responsibility for the actions of his supporters," he added.

(...)

The interim government warned Brazil on Sunday that its diplomatic credentials would be revoked in 10 days if it did not grant Mr Zelaya asylum or hand him over.

More than half of the time that had to be bridged until elections in November, is over. If they will have free elections with all four current major candidates then, and a new government is formed, anybody not recognising it then will have to explain why he accepted a leftist coup attempt, but does not recognize a freely elected government chosen by the people of Honduras in regular elections that had been held as scheduled by the constitution's rule .

This hat. Oh boy, I really will miss this hat. Horse opera star he seem to think he is. Give the man a golden plastic star and a toy Winchester.

And a solid spanking for the deaths he already has caused in the name of his great ego.

If they will have free elections with all four current major candidates then

Its quite hard to hold free elections when they are arresting the opposition, closing down the media and imposing curfews on the electorate, not to mention abolishing the need for arrest warrants and introducing indefinate detention without trial.....so much for upholding the constitution eh.

anybody not recognising it then will have to explain

BTW how does an unrecognised illegal "government" hold legally recognised elections?

The interim government warned Brazil on Sunday that its diplomatic credentials would be revoked in 10 days if it did not grant Mr Zelaya asylum or hand him over.

How do you revoke the diplomatic credentials of people if they don't recognise you diplomaticly in the first place?

[martes86]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Since you havn't read the constitution you can't make any valid comment on the constitutionality of the actions can you August.

And you don't seem to have read it either. That, or you're just too stubborn to just post the text here so everyone can read it so as to keep saying how everyone has not read the constitution and thus should just shut up, which is IMO a childish attitude. Anyways:

ARTICLE 239.- A citizen that has had the titularity of the Executive Power cannot be chosen as President or Delegate.

He who breaks this disposition or proposes its reformation, as well as those who support it direcly or indirectly, will inmediately cease in the fullfilling of their respective postings, and will be disabled for ten years for the execution of any public function.

That's a direct quote I've translated from article 239 of the Honduran constitution. It's possible that the ways of the "de facto" government to "disable" Zelaya have been a little exaggerated, and in fact, the article doesn't mention any specific actions to be taken other than the dismissal of the respective persons.

BUT, that doesn't mean I disagree with them, in fact, I think that Zelaya guy is just another Chavez waiting to happen, and the only reason our government (Spain) supports them is because of the money the think they'll get by being all friendly, given how much investment our country puts in South America, and how Chavez has been nationalizing some spanish corporation's branches there.

Free elections? I'm sure there will be, it's just that the pseudo-dictator won't be present, but anyone else will be. Having another one of Chavez's puppets in a S. America government is bad for everyone, but specially for the US (see Chavez disrespectfully speaking of the US all the time), and still, it amazes me how they're actually oppositing the "de facto" government.

Cheers

That's a direct quote I've translated from article 239 of the Honduran constitution.

So what?
It doesn't matter if the removal was fully in compliance with 378 articles of the constitution, unless it complies with all 379 articles it is unconstitutional.
Since the warrant, the arrest and removal were all enacted in violation of the constitution the whole procees is illegal.
Plus of course since the new "government" has violated another half dozen articles of the constitution since then its non existant constitutionality is furthewr destroyed.

I'm sure there will be, it's just that the pseudo-dictator won't be present, but anyone else will be.

Apart from thsoe who are imprisoned without trial ...or dead , but then again as the spokesman for security of the new "government" used to run death squads for the last dictatorship they have been pretty lucky so far. Actually its amazing how many people in the coup can be linked to dictatorships, death squads, terrorism and torture , not to mention the drugs trade.
Nice people just like Noriega, Pinochet and Galtieri

it amazes me how they're actually oppositing the "de facto" government.

It isn't amazing considering that most of the problems concerning the US standing in the region is due to their history of supporting coups like this one.

But anyway a simple question for you.
If the referendum on a non-binding resolution for possible future changes to the constitution had gone ahead how on earth would that have enabled Zelaya to extend his term in office? Given that the last change to the constitution took nearly 3 years to get drawn up and passed and Zelaya would have been out of office from the day of the vote anyway.

BTW I notice that on Monday your government arrested a former member of a latin American death squad who worked for a "government" that did a coup. Well done.

[martes86]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

It doesn't matter if the removal was fully in compliance with 378 articles of the constitution, unless it complies with all 379 articles it is unconstitutional.

That's not a valid argument. It doesn't have to comply with all and every article, since most of them treat very different subjects totally unrelated to this problem. In fact, it might only have to comply with the few articles that reference civil rights, and the attributions given to the justice powers, which would be the really related stuff.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Since the warrant, the arrest and removal were all enacted in violation of the constitution the whole procees is illegal.
Plus of course since the new "government" has violated another half dozen articles of the constitution since then its non existant constitutionality is furthewr destroyed.

A tribunal authorised it, so I'm inclined to think that maybe it was legal to THEIR LAWS. Maybe illegal from the point of international justice, but if they're actually doing that to prevent another of those "Bolivarian" movements and the problems that'd bring, then I'd say they have the right to do so, specially if the had the massive support of the population (at least initially). If Zelaya really were the good guy, he wouldn't struggle to create civil unrest in the country so that he could be restored, he'd use more civilised means. But since he's a Chavez alumni, he has to be all popular, pretending to have the support of the people. Cheap populism, the same thing Chavez enacts in Venezuela.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Actually its amazing how many people in the coup can be linked to dictatorships, death squads, terrorism and torture , not to mention the drugs trade.
Nice people just like Noriega, Pinochet and Galtieri

And Zelaya can be linked to Chavez, who's been closing media sites because they critizised him (allegedly a danger to national security) and nationalizing what's not his. And to Castro, which I think is, with the chinese and north-korean rulers, the oldest running dictator. After all they all share the same ideology, and tend to do alliances between each other.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

It isn't amazing considering that most of the problems concerning the US standing in the region is due to their history of supporting coups like this one.

You said it, history. I don't see the US supporting coups now, that's part of the past. But the past is usually a powerful ally for these pseudo-dictators, because just by talking about the "imperialists" and the "yankees", about how bad they're for the world, they have lots of people at their feet, usually the ones that actually benefit from what they do.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

But anyway a simple question for you.
If the referendum on a non-binding resolution for possible future changes to the constitution had gone ahead how on earth would that have enabled Zelaya to extend his term in office? Given that the last change to the constitution took nearly 3 years to get drawn up and passed and Zelaya would have been out of office from the day of the vote anyway.

You really think he'd have stepped out? The only reason he'd be stepping out would be another stage like this where he's forcibly removed. But I doubt that happens again if he comes back, because he'd surely make some laws to avoid being thrown out no matter what, even if they're illegal.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

BTW I notice that on Monday your government arrested a former member of a latin American death squad who worked for a "government" that did a coup. Well done.

Well, he was a proven killer, and he was in our country... I'd be ashamed if he wasn't arrested.

Cheers