Poison gas used against Berlin police

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Cohaagen

I generally have a rule against posting in GT, because of the American political crankery, but I think you should clarify this, Skybird. I know of no weapon in the UK arsenal that could produce effects like this. White Phosphorous produces a white cloud, and Red Phosphorous - surprise - makes a red one. CN has been out of the inventory for a long time, and CS was only ever used by the army in Northern Ireland. This also produced a thin white mist. Besides, what proof do you have that the grenade was British in the first place?

Sounds suspiciously like the effects of CS gas, used by almost all police forces worldwide. Perhaps it's a case of them not enjoying the taste of their own medicine, what?

I know not more than what that article in the german newspaper said, and they base it on a press confernece by the berlin police. There it is described as gas grenade from British arsenals that exuded a yellow cloud of gas that at first was ignored by the police, but then made officers loosing the ability to orient themselves, helplessly moving around without orientation, braking down and starting to vomit.

CS is different, i know from first hand experience , both in effect, and in colour. CS effects you from the first seconds on after you got exposed to it, not with minutes of delay, and it is not yellow.

The grenade is not something being used by the Berlin police.

The berlin senate in under fire since long for it's incompoetent handling of violent events like this that from year to year become more brutal. Incompetent tactics orderd by incompetent politicians have made police officers being sent into the "fire" in small groups, making sure that most of the thugs escape unharmed, but every arrest got payed with several injured officers, since these small groups often got mauled. The last time it was a total deasaster with several hundred injured police officers (almost 500 of close to 3000 officers called to the streets)- far more than were arrested (less than 300, and only around 50 were kept to be brought to court). Most of the arrested were released within 48 hours again even with video captures of them throwing stones, vandalising, throwing molotow cocktails, damaging public and private property.

We are a very social state, with much caring for the future fate of those poor lost innocent souls. we should not damage their chance to become integrated well behaving socially valuable memebers of society in the coming years - by arresting them.

Better hope for the best when they start going amok again next 1st May night - becasue they enjoy the violence. It's is not much different than holliganism in Britain - you cannot explain it by social frustration or such educated guesses. It is enjoying the chaos and violence, it is archaic, almost animalistic instibncts of territorialism and tribal rites: "us" against "them". That simple. Causal triggers are not needed. I also do not need a trigger to pick up a piece of chocolate. I simply enjoy the taste of it for the very taste of it, and even do it when I already have had more than is reasonable. Period.

"Not enjoying a taste of their own medicine", you said. I tend to take that haughty anti-police comment a bit queer. the police does not start these nights of street war, but thugs coming from all over Germany to the knonw hotspots in Hamburhg and Berlin, on the known dates, for the only purpose to start trouble, causing violence and if possible trying to hurt officers, "pigs" as they are generally called by these thugs. It is violence tourism, and violence is it's only goal and intention.

A policeman's health and life is not worth much these days anymore. And it'S getting worse and worse. The inhibition levels to use lethal force are decreasing more and more ven amongst the youngest, and more and more often lethal weapons, knifes and firearms are found and confiscated at such events.

Some years ago, the boss of the police in New York was guest in Berlin, that was after he had brought down the crime rate very significantly by several factors, by a policy that even small crimes got hunted down uncompromised thta before got ignored since they were called "too minor". Germans listend, and ignored it completely. "Too tough", some politicians said, but "too expensive" was what all were thinking.

The police union is up in arms over the incident with the gas grenade. They rarely become that, and that means the story is considered as a very dangerous incident.

[Cohaagen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

CS is different, i know from first hand experience

Yeah, I know too. I was sprayed during the 2005 G8 protests in Edinburgh, despite the fact that I was working for the local police force at the time as support staff. A lot of the Met cops - bussed in from London to beef up the numbers - seemed to be enjoyed themselves a bit too much.

A policeman's health and life is not worth much these days anymore. And it'S getting worse and worse.

No, it isn't. Policemen are paid more than firefighters, infantry soldiers, deep-sea fishermen (of which I am one), oil rig roughnecks, journalists, etc., all of whom suffer a far higher occupational mortality rate. They also have excellent employee benefits and good union represenation EU-wide, not to mention veneration by much of the press.

I'm not a German resident, but I've been to Germany many times (Fallingbostel mainly) and spent many, many months there, and the only time I've seen any street trouble it was caused by British squaddies or their relatives/visitors. Generally people were far more civic-minded than in the UK, and more socially responsible. It is far from doom-and-gloom.

Some years ago, the boss of the police in New York was guest in Berlin, that was after he had brought down the crime rate very significantly by several factors, by a policy that even small crimes got hunted down uncompromised thta before got ignored since they were called "too minor". Germans listend, and ignored it completely. "Too tough", some politicians said, but "too expensive" was what all were thinking.

Ah yes, the famous "zero-tolerance" scheme.

A braided chimp in a Sam Browne and army-surplus helmet could have brought down the crime level in New York at that point. It was totally out of control. However, putting people in jail for five years for pissing in a mailbox is not an effective use of resources - it's tough guy posturing.

[Skybird]

As I understood it, the NY zero tolerance scheme was not about excessive penalties, but about not closing cases of minor importance (shoplifting, graffiti spraying) but chasing even small fishes down and bring them to court at all. And comparing crime rates before and after the change convinces me that they have had a valid point there. As an ex-psychologist I also know that they just implemented known findings from behavioral reasearch and behavior shaping, althoiugh maybe thy did it wiothout knowing it. If a penlty should serce it'S pourpose to alter an individual'S behavior, it must

- be implied soon after the deed, for the more time passes between deed and penalty, the smaller the lesson beign learned,

- the penalty must be real and not just imagined (I strictly oppose the idea of suspended penalties),

- the penalty must be of such an aversive quality that the positive gain by the deed is not perceived as a compensation for it,

- and in the early phase of behavior shaping you need to consistently give the penalty stimulas EVERY time the unwanted behavior is being shown. Later the educational effect gets maximised using rewards instead, and after that: there is so-called intermittend shaping, you give the reward only in some cases of wanted behavior, but not in all (every pet-holder does like that by instinct).

But today, courts violate these principles time and again, for claimed good intentions and heavily flawed pedagogic conceptions. This social ambition is as wrong as are boot-camps. I hate to say it, because I do not like it so much in general, but Skinner's behaviorism understands these mechanisms of rewrd and penalty better than any other socio-psychological model.

[ The other thing where I have to admit behaviorism is the method of choice, is the treatement of phobias (systematic desensitizing, stimulus confrontation). ]

[FIREWALL]

It's the Metric systems fault I says.

While I don't know what grenade it was and what gas, I do believe that the British have all kinds of stuff they don't talk about openly. If things go hairy, the Brits will go for the evil stuff. Oh yea.

[August]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

While I don't know what grenade it was and what gas, I do believe that the British have all kinds of stuff they don't talk about openly. If things go hairy, the Brits will go for the evil stuff. Oh yea.

Sounds like CS gas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas

[Fincuan]

The effects sure sound like military grade CS was used, but the delay does not. I too have been subjected to the substance on a few occassions, and the effects started within seconds, not minutes. Then again magazines rarely get this kind of stuff correctly, so it might just be an error in their reporting. In strong enough concentrations even "normal" yellow smoke could cause the described effects, even kill, but that'd mean you'd have to stand practically on top of the canister or be indoors. Neither of those seem to be the case here.