Submarines got tough in LWAMI

[JamesT73J]

Hi all,

Played Tlam's Bahama Bash redux the last couple of nights (still not finished it) as part of my return to DW. I managed a straightforward attack on a deaf ASW vessel that clearly didn't detect the torpedo.

Shortly after, I got attacked (pretty heavily) by what I believe were several air-dropped torpedoes. I had one of those classic SC/DW moments where I was stunned that I'd obviously missed something, or the entity had been triggered nearby. I evaded and ran south until the sonar picture quietened down, whereupon I picked up a feint 50hz line that I took to be my attacker. I actually could not assign a tracker for some time, and considered a snapshot attack (rather than risk getting closer) until suddenly the system finally accepted the tracker and I could begin working up a solution.

Indeed, a six bladed count on demon confirmed him as a bad guy, and 3 tma legs showed him on a lag course, at around 4500yds. 4500yds! Sheeeeit!

For whatever reason, he had not detected me again, but he was reversing course, at a crawl. Easy meat. Or so I thought. I bracketed him with two MK48's, and he ran like hell, and continually frustrated the torpedoes.

My manual TMA was absolutely stretched to the limit, as the sub continued his 30kt egress out of dodge. I watched the telltale Demon slow down as he thought he was safe; then I reevaluated his position and turned the torps accordingly, and he started running again.

He met his end at around 10kyds, and he did squirt out a snapshot UGST, but it was well off course.

The surviveability impressed me. Sound evasion tactics really do work, on both sides. How the hell do people manage without wireguiding? It made me think back to the old days of stock SC, and laugh at those silver bullet MK48's (and 65cms) that would only need a rough bearing and they'd get a kill every single time.

Nice work LWAMI.

[Castout]

Damn it on the day I just reinstalled DW and LWAMI 3.09 DWX came out. I had to pick one of the two. Sounds like big fun!

[JamesT73J]

Fun it was. The shorter detection ranges against later platforms (SCX has this as well) makes it very challenging - you need to watch the sonar much more carefully. Because I've been playing 'blind'; it's quite spooky; you never quite know what's going on. The Akula I sunk had a secondary explosion as well (about a minute after being hit), which I don't remember experiencing before.

I suppose I should do a proper AAR on one of these things - I find them a hoot to write.

[Ori_b]

Sounds really fascinating, can you please expand on the evading part?

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by JamesT73J

Hi all,

Played Tlam's Bahama Bash redux the last couple of nights (still not finished it) as part of my return to DW. I managed a straightforward attack on a deaf ASW vessel that clearly didn't detect the torpedo.

Shortly after, I got attacked (pretty heavily) by what I believe were several air-dropped torpedoes. I had one of those classic SC/DW moments where I was stunned that I'd obviously missed something, or the entity had been triggered nearby. I evaded and ran south until the sonar picture quietened down, whereupon I picked up a feint 50hz line that I took to be my attacker. I actually could not assign a tracker for some time, and considered a snapshot attack (rather than risk getting closer) until suddenly the system finally accepted the tracker and I could begin working up a solution.

Indeed, a six bladed count on demon confirmed him as a bad guy, and 3 tma legs showed him on a lag course, at around 4500yds. 4500yds! Sheeeeit!

For whatever reason, he had not detected me again, but he was reversing course, at a crawl. Easy meat. Or so I thought. I bracketed him with two MK48's, and he ran like hell, and continually frustrated the torpedoes.

My manual TMA was absolutely stretched to the limit, as the sub continued his 30kt egress out of dodge. I watched the telltale Demon slow down as he thought he was safe; then I reevaluated his position and turned the torps accordingly, and he started running again.

He met his end at around 10kyds, and he did squirt out a snapshot UGST, but it was well off course.

The surviveability impressed me. Sound evasion tactics really do work, on both sides. How the hell do people manage without wireguiding? It made me think back to the old days of stock SC, and laugh at those silver bullet MK48's (and 65cms) that would only need a rough bearing and they'd get a kill every single time.

Nice work LWAMI.

Thanks. Improved AI doctrines are nothing new, but it is something that we are quite happy with at LWAMI. I'm going to email this to Luftwolf to make sure he sees this.

[JamesT73J]

Originally Posted by Ori_b

Sounds really fascinating, can you please expand on the evading part?

Torpedoes are more vulnerable to countermeasures with the mod, both literally (decoys) and kinematically (maneuver). it's not because they're any less maneuverable, they simply don't acquire and reacquire you as easily. Same for the AI with your torps.

First step is to assess whether you're actually under threat from the TIW's, frequently (surprisingly!) they're not always very well aimed. Pick the torpedo out on broadband, and watch the bearing; if it's constant it's heading toward you.

My normal procedure is as follows:

1) Grade the threat. If it is a threat, do the following.
2) Drop an active decoy.
3) Countershoot on bearing. It will cause the threat platform to run away and break contact, and you may even get lucky.
3) Turn away from the incoming threat at about 60-70 degrees, at around 10-15kts speed; the objective is to get out of the acquisition cone, and open up range, while still maintaining sonar picture

If the above is okay, the torp will pick up on the decoy and won't bother you. However, this is seldom the case. If the torpedo is heading toward you, continue opening up range and lateral separation. If the torpedo goes active, monitor the active intercept, and watch particularly for the pings increasing in frequency, or being <=5 secs apart. In SC; the fifth 'strength' lamp would light, which would mean you've been acquired, but in DW this tool is less accurate, so frequency of pings is more useful. Now, it's time to get aggressive, and defeat the torpedo with maneuver and decoys.

1) Go to flank, pop out decoys, and keep reloading them as soon as you do. Keep you course around 70-80 to the threat; you'll typically be adjusting your course frequently as torpedos reacquire, and they'll occasionally be from more than one direction. Be liberal with decoys; that's what they are there for.

2) You'll know when the threat recedes; you can either have evaded, or put the torpedo in your active intercept baffle (so you can't hear it). Slow down and alter course slightly.

3) Repeat, but your objective is to open up range, always turn away.

It doesn't work all the time - you'll frequently get hit, but doing this will increase your survivability. A crucial part of things is knowing when to start high-speed, aggressive maneuver; you don't always need to.

Poor sonar conditions also change the picture. If you've got poor tracking / detection ability (weak broadband signals, even when relatively close) then that also works for you if you're attacked.

[mikka]

Related question: I hear these things about AI subs acting drowsy in RA. Mind you I haven't tried the mod yet so it's only hearsay, but LWAMI's agressive behavior and evasion prowess makes me wonder: Would LWAMI doctrine files work on RA/DWX? Would it be as simple as a file graft or would it require tweaking?
And, if you have experience with both mods, do you find LWAMI's sub doctrines superior to RA/DWX? Or are they just different philosophies?

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by mikka

Related question: I hear these things about AI subs acting drowsy in RA. Mind you I haven't tried the mod yet so it's only hearsay, but LWAMI's agressive behavior and evasion prowess makes me wonder: Would LWAMI doctrine files work on RA/DWX? Would it be as simple as a file graft or would it require tweaking?
And, if you have experience with both mods, do you find LWAMI's sub doctrines superior to RA/DWX? Or are they just different philosophies?

In theory, it's possible to "borrow" parts of a doctrine to use in your own, but DW can be really weird sometimes and things you think should work simply don't. And there's also always the issue of whether there is just something going on on their code that won't work with the LWAMI doctrines. So the answer is, maybe.

[Ori_b]

BTW on a bit different subject.
Molon, are there any ref-sheets for LWAMI like those you did for DW 1.04?
These were great sheets covering all the notes and numbers (or at least most of them) you need while playing.

Never played with LWAMI, and i know lots of numbers (ranges and such) are changed from stock.

I remember few years back, David spoke about preparing ref sheets and tables for the mod, did he finish them?

[Blacklight]

Molon, are there any ref-sheets for LWAMI like those you did for DW 1.04?

That would be a cool thing to add with the next LWAMI mod when it's done.

[Molon Labe]

I'm not sure what document you're specifically asking for. A few I've done involving LWAMI data:

PSL levels
No-Escape Ranges

...and there is a sonar profiles spreadsheet that ships with LWAMI 3.09.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by JamesT73J

The Akula I sunk had a secondary explosion as well (about a minute after being hit), which I don't remember experiencing before.

Thats what happends when a sunk sub sinks past crush depth.