Separation of Church and State...

I can't understand why you Americans would ever want to separate the state and the church. I mean it's soooo much fun when the're one and the same. We Finns know this.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

I can't understand why you Americans would ever want to separate the state and the church. I mean it's soooo much fun when the're one and the same. We Finns know this.

I'm all for the separation.

But I'm also pragmatic. How does a cross on public land affect said separation?

It doesn't.

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by Aramike

I'm all for the separation.

But I'm also pragmatic. How does a cross on public land affect said separation?

It doesn't.

A cross, and only a cross, on public land implies public endorsement of Christianity over other religions.

If other religions are allowed to put their symbols there (including a symbol for atheism), then fine by me. For example, there are plenty of crosses in Arlington National Cemetery, but those of other faiths are allowed to be buried under their own religious symbols.

[Platapus]

I wonder what the reaction would be if we had a President only use the exact oath that is listed in the Constitution?

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I wonder what the reaction would be if we had a President only use the exact oath that is listed in the Constitution?

I suspect that, in the case of Obama, conservatives would have made a huge stink about it especially considering the controversy surrounding his church and religion.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Max2147

A cross, and only a cross, on public land implies public endorsement of Christianity over other religions.

If other religions are allowed to put their symbols there (including a symbol for atheism), then fine by me. For example, there are plenty of crosses in Arlington National Cemetery, but those of other faiths are allowed to be buried under their own religious symbols.

I still stand by my point. If the people democratically choose to place a single symbol, and that symbol means nothing to the Constitutionally protected processes, then they should be allowed to place that symbol.

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by Aramike

I still stand by my point. If the people democratically choose to place a single symbol, and that symbol means nothing to the Constitutionally protected processes, then they should be allowed to place that symbol.

That sounds like tyranny of the majority to me. The First Amendment is the Constitution's key protection against that.

I also think that it's difficult for a religions symbol to "mean nothing to the Constitutionally protected process." It may be innocent and harmless in the eyes of the people who believe in that religion, but it can still be offensive to people of different religions.

Think of it this way: Every time you think about a cross on public land, imagine if it was a star and crescent, or a pentagram, or some other religious symbol that you don't believe in. I think it will change your views.

For what it's worth, I think the "No God" advertisements on publicly-owned buses are also a violation of the Separation of Church and State.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Max2147

For what it's worth, I think the "No God" advertisements on publicly-owned buses are also a violation of the Separation of Church and State.

Not really, since state and public space are not the same. The campaign is simply stupid. I understand that it was meant to let religious missionaries, who aggressively go from door to door or try to get a public audience, tate their own medicine. But I wonder if such a bus-.campaign is the right answer. Not to mention to express a rest of doubt in one's own statement - that was the most stupid of all.

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by Max2147

For what it's worth, I think the "No God" advertisements on publicly-owned buses are also a violation of the Separation of Church and State.

That's interesting! The space is sold for advertising revenues. Who then decides what is offensive and what isn't. Ads for say, the sex industry, or those using profanity would likely not be allowed. But ads for a service provided by a religious entity would, such as charity pleas and medical care, or Scientology.

Buddahaid

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

That's interesting! The space is sold for advertising revenues. Who then decides what is offensive and what isn't. Ads for say, the sex industry, or those using profanity would likely not be allowed. But ads for a service provided by a religious entity would, such as charity pleas and medical care, or Scientology.

Buddahaid

My personal view is that advertisements with a religious or political message should not be allowed on public property, and that includes publicly-owned buses. I think it's fine if a religious group buys advertising space for a non-religious message like a charity drive, but advertising religion itself (or the lack thereof) on public property implies a degree of public (i.e. government) support for that religion, which IMO is a violation of the separation of church and state.

That goes for political messages too. I'd be upset if I saw an "Obama/Biden" advert on a publicly-owned bus, even though I voted for them.

If it's a private company, then it's completely different - they can do whatever they want. But if the buses were bought and/or are operated with tax dollars, then they have to be held to different standards.

[Iceman]

Seperate Church and State?...

They already are seperate.

I always find it intresting how Christians get upset over this and fail to see the bigger picture. It is taught in the Christian Bible and spoken by Christ Himself on the cross that if His kingdom were of this world, would not have 10 legions of angels came and took Him from the cross....His kingdom is not of this world nor are His chosen...they are alien.

Christ lived his whole life to show the believer how to overcome...He did overturn the money changers table , He did speak to the wrongs and follys of man yet bare the full brunt of mans evil in silence.

The law was never meant as a path to salvation but to show the errors of man...and they are evident are brought into the light.

God will do battle for His own....God gave free will it is true...many always say...why would God allow such evils in the world...God did not choose the evil we did...He sent the Son to re-open the way back to His grace and yes He will not destroy man but He will not suffer His own to remain in such an evil environment...this is why He will send the Son back....to retrieve His own....and has also prepared a place for those who "Choose" not the way of peace....

Revelation 10
5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 19
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 22
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Peace...