Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[Task Force]

In my opinion, the swastika means nothing other than... well as symbol of a nation that fell years ago... It had other meaning before the war.

Heres what wikipedia has to say about the Swastika.

The swastika (from Sanskrit svástika स्वस्तिक) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, in either right-facing (卐) form or its mirrored left-facing (卍) form. Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic period. It occurs mainly in the modern day culture of India, sometimes as a geometrical motif and sometimes as a religious symbol. It remains widely used in Eastern religions / Dharmic religion such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.
Though once commonly used all over much of the world without stigma, because of its iconic usage in Nazi Germany the symbol has become stigmatized in the Western world, and it has notably been outlawed in Germany if used as symbol of Nazism. Usage of the sign by religious groups is tolerated. Many modern far right and neo-nazi groups such as Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging or Russian National Unity use stylised swastikas or similar symbols.

so it use to be a good thing, a religious symbol, then it was turnt into the National german workers partys symbol.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

That time is not here for the Nazis of World War II. The German people themselves testify to that. A poor dead guard at a museum testifies to that. Until their attitudes and positions are exterminated, adopting their symbols and roleplaying their people is not appropriate. There is a line that we need not and must not cross.

You make it sound like everyone should treat the whole subject of U-boat warfare as taboo and there shouldn't be games about it. Do you feel that way about IL2 Sturmovik? You can fly Nazi planes in that game. Does it mean it glorifies the Nazi cause? You can even fly Russian planes too...does that glorify their cause? Ask any Pole from that era about what nice guys the Russians were. Is that wrong? Should we ignore that aspect of the war with our sims?

I doubt the majority of us SH3 fans are roleplaying Nazis and sailing for the glory of Adolf Hitler. That argument is specious.

I prefer U-boats and u-boat history. Does that mean I'm glorifying the Nazi cause? No. I just find the struggles, technologies and theatre more interesting than fleet boats.

Do I want realism in my sim? Yes. I like to experience that side of warfare because I am interested in these tactics. Sim game fans are sticklers for realism and necessarily attract rivet counters. Remember when SH4 came out and people were complaining about the belt buckles on your crew being Marine buckles and not Navy buckles? That's the kind of person you're dealing with. To leave out swastikas or ignore U-boat terminology would make it less of a sim.

People play games for the challenge aspect. Just because I prefer the challenges of sailing a U-boat over the challenges of sailing a Fleet boat is no reason to beat me up over it and tell me I'm inappropriate.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

You make it sound like everyone should treat the whole subject of U-boat warfare as taboo and there shouldn't be games about it. Do you feel that way about IL2 Sturmovik? You can fly Nazi planes in that game.

You are incorrect. You cannot fly a 'Nazi plane' as that would imply that the plane stood in line at the Nazi party HQ and paid its membership and then pinned its Nazi symbol on its self. Given the Nazi's views on 'sub-humans' I'm pretty sure inanimate objects would not be allowed to join the Nazi party, amazing as a talking plane that wanted to be a Nazi party member would have been. Though, if any instances of any truck ever joining the Nazi party are found, then that may well give credance to the rumours I keep hearing of 'Nazi trucks'. Leave the machines alone and let the humans take the blame - they had the free choice as to join or not.

Having a German plane flown by a Nazi, is of course different, as that human made the choice to join the Nazi party and support its cause, but don't blame the plane for its pilot's choice. To have any such thing close to this in IL2, you would have to be a Nazi, flying a German plane, but as no one can be a member of the Nazi party now, you can only wish for it and it will never happen.

[Rockin Robbins]

Mookie was merely twisting my position into something it is not. I play and mod the German side of the war, as everyone knows. I don't have a clue why mookie would say something as clearly false as that. I guess in an Internet discussion anything goes as long as it scores "points."

The whole point of a simulation is to answer the question "what if?" In this case, what if the Germans had followed different tactics, could the U-Boat have won the war? My conclusion has been that no change in tactics or even advancing the state of the U-Boat beyond 1920 would have resulted in a German victory in the Battle of the Atlantic, much less the war.

Tactically, the Germans would have been much better served by being much less aggressive. They could have wiped out France and Poland, taking the necessary Low Countries in the bargain (you were just in the way, sorry we bumped you!). If the U-Boats had been coastal defense only, the British would not have been so inflamed. The Battle of Britain iced the cake.

Totalitarian regimes are free to act aggressively. Even when provoked, it is very difficult to move a republic or constitutional monarchy to the tipping point where they are wholeheartedly committed to death and destruction. They always contain large groups of supplicators who believe that peace is the greatest good, no matter what, and nothing is worth the price of a single soldier's life.

Just look at the US today, with the radical Islamics at war with us and our official stance is to pretend there is no war. We'll pay for that. Also look at the stance of English peaceniks during the Napoleonic period, who were vicious in their politics of destruction toward the Duke of York and those who saw the need to defeat Napolean.

Hitler didn't understand the dynamics of popularly elected government, and so was unable to take advantage of its characteristics in order to have a greater chance of victory, U-Boats or no U-Boats. But as it was, the U-Boats were responsible for the resolve of the British and the presence of the Americans. Without both of those, the Germans would easily have won.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

You are incorrect. You cannot fly a 'Nazi plane' as that would imply that the plane stood in line at the Nazi party HQ and paid its membership and then pinned its Nazi symbol on its self. Given the Nazi's views on 'sub-humans' I'm pretty sure inanimate objects would not be allowed to join the Nazi party, amazing as a talking plane that wanted to be a Nazi party member would have been. Though, if any instances of any truck ever joining the Nazi party are found, then that may well give credance to the rumours I keep hearing of 'Nazi trucks'. Leave the machines alone and let the humans take the blame - they had the free choice as to join or not.

Having a German plane flown by a Nazi, is of course different, as that human made the choice to join the Nazi party and support its cause, but don't blame the plane for its pilot's choice. To have any such thing close to this in IL2, you would have to be a Nazi, flying a German plane, but as no one can be a member of the Nazi party now, you can only wish for it and it will never happen.

Hear that, Jay Jay the Jet plane? Your party membership is hereby cancelled!




In all seriousness, I'm guilty as charged on that one. I should have been more clearer when describing a plane flown by the Nazi ruling regime in Germany circa WW2... But it also proves the point I was trying to make...sailing a U-boat in a sim doesn't make me a Nazi. I'm not sailing for the glory of the Fatherland. I'm having fun sinking pixels with the same weapons and abilities a U-boat carried in the same situations a U-boat would have encountered. Because I like to place myself in the same situations they were in is a far cry from furthering the goals of Nazi era Germany or their ideology now or then.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Mookie was merely twisting my position into something it is not. I play and mod the German side of the war, as everyone knows. I don't have a clue why mookie would say something as clearly false as that. I guess in an Internet discussion anything goes as long as it scores "points."

Another mea culpa for me. I thought your position at the time was that playing a U-boat sim was inherently bad as it supported the Nazi position. I now understand that you were talking about forum signatures displaying Nazi symbolism.

[Tony845]

I've wondered how people felt about this topic. I have not been reading posts on this forum long enough to see any comments before on the subject of symbols. Nine pages of posts on this thread so far. More to come, I'm sure. I'm afraid this is a topic that will never be answered to everyone's satisfaction either in the forum or in real life. Symbols that have been associated with evil or supposed evil purposes seldom regain a neutral or 'clean' meaning. It can take a generational change to do this. Sort of like the peace symbol, (the "upside down broken cross" thing) was taken as anti-religious to many of my fathers generation.

I submit that the best thing to do is play the game the way you want and keep your options (and emotions) about symbols to yourself. Freedom of expression is a wonderful thing but sometimes it's best to bite your tongue.

Tony

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Task Force

In my opinion, the swastika means nothing other than... well as symbol of a nation that fell years ago... It had other meaning before the war.

Heres what wikipedia has to say about the Swastika.

The swastika (from Sanskrit svástika स्वस्तिक) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, in either right-facing (卐) form or its mirrored left-facing (卍) form. Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic period. It occurs mainly in the modern day culture of India, sometimes as a geometrical motif and sometimes as a religious symbol. It remains widely used in Eastern religions / Dharmic religion such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.
Though once commonly used all over much of the world without stigma, because of its iconic usage in Nazi Germany the symbol has become stigmatized in the Western world, and it has notably been outlawed in Germany if used as symbol of Nazism. Usage of the sign by religious groups is tolerated. Many modern far right and neo-nazi groups such as Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging or Russian National Unity use stylised swastikas or similar symbols.

so it use to be a good thing, a religious symbol, then it was turnt into the National german workers partys symbol.

So what, maybe in a thousand years sensibilities in europe will be so that the use of the svastika symbol won't be given second thought (and everybody will think of its religous symbolism forgetting what it actually represented for 15 years in the 20th century). But right now, not even a century has passed since the end of WW2 and all of the atrocities comitted by a regime whose symbol is the svastika.
These things just don't dissapear overnight you know ?

[Rockin Robbins]

Owner, the attributes of the game have never been questioned or even discussed in my posts. I've talked only about attributes of Subsim members and the propriety of wrapping oneself in the Nazi emblem. No my thread is not to "started not For the Game Itself, Just to cause ., Public Opinion on A Game?" whatever that means.

I have no problem whatever with Nazi emblems used in a historical context within the game. I understand and agree with Ubi's decision to avoid that. I understand and agree with modders' efforts to produce options to restore them. They existed. Their existence within a simulation is justified. I enjoy playing the U-Boat side of SH4UBM and SH3.

The rising sun is a national, not a party flag and as such is just as rehabilitated as the Japanese and German people. It wouldn't be appropriate to question the propriety of its use. Respect for the people of the nations of Germany and Japan dictates that we allow them to choose their own flags.

[don1reed]

As everyone reading this forum understands, no amount of colored cloth sewn with threads of symbolism has ever destroyed a single human being; just as we all understand that no matter what weapons we use in warfare has ever killed another fellow human, except for the will of opposing “entities” to actually use them.

Some Americans are adamant in their anger/hatred over the display of the Confederate, stars and bars, Civil War flag; even though they fully understand the flag didn’t put their ancestors into bondage, they are still very sensitive to what the symbol represented.

Symbols used in the context of a computerized war simulation or reenactment are not usually considered offensive as they are depicting historic events, as for as the computer simulation, one must privately open the program to view the contents; however, to display such potentially, hurtful symbols in one’s public signature might/would be considered poor taste and in some instances illegal.

I’m for the brotherhood of man, as are we all, and anything we might do to advance our spirit of friendship and common interest the better for all.

$0.02

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by don1reed

As everyone reading this forum understands, no amount of colored cloth sewn with threads of symbolism has ever destroyed a single human being; just as we all understand that no matter what weapons we use in warfare has ever killed another fellow human, except for the will of opposing “entities” to actually use them.

blah, blah, blah...


I’m for the brotherhood of man, as are we all, and anything we might do to advance our spirit of friendship and common interest the better for all.

$0.02

Now THAT's a pantload of cow squeeze! Those colored cloths are part of the tools of manipulation and those weapons are the tools of destruction. Without them, the job couldn't be done. To blithely pretend they are harmless is a very nasty lie. "As everybody reading this forum" knows, it's not nice to try to tell them what they believe.

The way to effectively promote the brotherhood of man is to have lots of weapons and people trained and qualified to use them, so when some pipsqueak pops up and starts his chest thumping, the first time he starts picking on his neighbors he is killed as quickly and violently as possible. In that way the most lives are saved, both in the victim nations and in his own.

Peace comes only through resounding and final victory in war or the prevention of war by overwhelming force. Negotiating with rogue states is a one-way path to a hundred times more trouble. They need to know where the limits are and that the consequences of exceeding them will be swift and it will be terrible. The civilized nations need to be the ones setting the limits, not the rogue states.

"We shoot missiles pointing at you, but if you board a ship we declare war" doesn't cut it. Look pal, missiles launched in the direction of Japan or Hawaii are an act of war and we're real good at it. Try it and find out. If this is a game, you're the loser.

Why do you think Somalian pirates don't attack Russian ships? They know the consequences.

[Kloef]

off-topic

"We shoot missiles pointing at you, but if you board a ship we declare war" doesn't cut it. Look pal, missiles launched in the direction of Japan or Hawaii are an act of war and we're real good at it. Try it and find out. If this is a game, you're the loser.

So what you are saying is when you attack us we attack you,Seoul gets about 18000 artillery shells fired on it in a single burst from the North,they counterattack with missiles lacking manpower and eventually China and Russia attack the U.S,resulting in a total nuclear war?

Well in that case we are all losers..cause thats one of the scenarios likely to happen..

[don1reed]

Actually, a civil response as, "I disagree and here are my reasons..." would have been sufficient, Robin. No need to loose one's temper or tilt at windmills.

The topic of [Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?]

It looks as if the title of this thread is asking each of us for an opinion, and as such, no one's opinion is more important than the next guy's. I could be wrong; but, IMHO is that those symbols were OK in the sim and mods, and it was my opinion that they should not be used in our public signatures. There, thats all I'm saying, feel free to respond.

All the best,