[REL] S-Class Dazzle skin

[Highbury]

Yeah, I only noticed when looking for pics of any WW2 US subs with camo. I came across the first link I put up and had just read your post saying you had seen it listed as O-16, that made me google the K-2 where I found the wiki link with the same pic.

After looking at the link you just put up, check the pictures of the O-16 above. I think they are actually mistaken. This profile of K-3 looks alot like picture of the camoflaged boat, the other pics of O-16 have a very different profile.



It looks to me like it is indeed the K Class. I am just learning this stuff myself and it is amazing how many times websites can be incorrect and misleading.

[runningdeer]

Originally Posted by Highbury

It looks to me like it is indeed the K Class. I am just learning this stuff myself and it is amazing how many times websites can be incorrect and misleading.

Yeah...I'm new to this as well. Learning as I go.

So it would make sense that it is a K-class, since ichso's is a K-class. Maybe after the K-class they stopped using the dazzle on subs . I say that because I have not been able to find any other submarine photos done in dazzle. Other than these 2 we are discussing.

You seem to be good at finding photos. Have you found any other submarine photos done in dazzle, besides these 2 boats?

[ichso]

Hm, I think the dazzle camo doesn't make much sense for submarines anyway. Because submarines are supposed to be invisible as long as possible and to dive before they get into sighting range.
But the dazzle scheme was used to irritate enemies, that have already spotted the camouflaged ship. So it's purpose was to make range finding, AoB estimation and stuff like that really hard. But it is still contradictory to not being spotted at all. And the submarine's best camouflage was their lack of a huge exhaust smoke funnel and a large silhouette. That's why they mostly used plain color schemes as 'camouflage'. To fit the assumed color of the ocean under as many different circumstances as possible whereas the purpose of dazzle camo had nothing to do with hiding.

[Task Force]

Nice skin...


lol, If that wouldnt get a guy knoticed... nothing will.:rotfl:

[runningdeer]

Originally Posted by ichso

Hm, I think the dazzle camo doesn't make much sense for submarines anyway. Because submarines are supposed to be invisible as long as possible and to dive before they get into sighting range.
But the dazzle scheme was used to irritate enemies, that have already spotted the camouflaged ship. So it's purpose was to make range finding, AoB estimation and stuff like that really hard. But it is still contradictory to not being spotted at all. And the submarine's best camouflage was their lack of a huge exhaust smoke funnel and a large silhouette. That's why they mostly used plain color schemes as 'camouflage'. To fit the assumed color of the ocean under as many different circumstances as possible whereas the purpose of dazzle camo had nothing to do with hiding.

Hi...this might seem like a silly question, but is the color of the Pacific ocean the same color throughout? Or is it green here and blue there kinda thing?

[ichso]

I don't know for sure either but I would guess that the color changes from the coasts to the open ocean at least. And the pacific theater went all the way from north to south for the fleet boats so a camo scheme cannot accomodate for all of that.

Also different daytimes and weather conditions have to be taken into consideration so there wasn't really any camouflage that would make a ship hard to spot during the whole journey.

[Rockin Robbins]

Thank you! Your pics are K-5 with the narrow stripes and K-2 with the wide stripes in 1916. Four subs were used with varying widths of zebra stripes. Testing revealed that all schemes actually made the boats easier to see! I'm going to use the narrow stripe pattern just as soon as I get a chance! This is great! I love both S-Boat dazzle skins! Keep 'em available, please.

There is a tantalizing piece of info over at navsource:

Submarine visual camouflage became an issue again before the outbreak of the Second World War. This time the question was not only one of concealing a surfaced submarine, but also of hiding a submerged submarine from aerial observation. Once again, a series of trials was conducted to test various ideas. Tests between 1934 and 1936 were inconclusive. A new series was ordered and took place off Pearl Harbor in mid 1937. Four boats of the old "S" class were used. S-28 (SS-133) was painted entirely black, S-35 (SS-140) was dark blue-gray overall. S-21 (SS-126) was given a coat of dark purple. In a second series, disruptive patterns were used. S-21 carried black and green. S-35 was painted in black, blue and green. For a third, and final, test S-22 (SS-127) was given a pattern of dark blue and black. The conclusion reached from these experiments was that dark blue offered the best concealment in deep, clear, tropical waters. As a result, Commander SubRon 4 ordered boats of SubDiv 8 to be repainted in blue as paint became available. Paint for all navy ships was under the provence of the Bureau of Construction and Repair in the Navy Department and appropriate instructions were covered in the booklet issued by that Bureau known as C&R-4.

[OrangeYoshi]

I understand why you would put stripes on something, (zebras for example) they break up the outline etc. But wouldn't stripes on a ship just make it easier to spot? When you are shooting from a sub you don't really need to see the outline.

[runningdeer]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Thank you! Your pics are K-5 with the narrow stripes and K-2 with the wide stripes in 1916. Four subs were used with varying widths of zebra stripes. Testing revealed that all schemes actually made the boats easier to see! I'm going to use the narrow stripe pattern just as soon as I get a chance! This is great! I love both S-Boat dazzle skins! Keep 'em available, please.

There is a tantalizing piece of info over at navsource:

Thank you RR. Just goes to show myself that I need to be more thorough when researching these things.

I found the 'quote' interesting. That a dark blue color was determined to be a good scheme. And it seems natural to use a shade of blue.

Now we have another skin to make .

[Highbury]

Originally Posted by runningdeer

You seem to be good at finding photos. Have you found any other submarine photos done in dazzle, besides these 2 boats?

I put up a book scan in ichso's skin thread of another boat, I don't know the class. There are not many pics, and most seem to be K -Class.

As for Dazzle or any painted camo on submarines, every historical look at Naval camo in the 20th century says it was done to confuse submarines, and subs having them seems pointless. So nobody seems to claim it was logical to put it on subs. BUT they did in fact do it, and in my opinion they look friggin cool if impractical. Since it does not matter one way or the other to the AI in game I will go with what looks friggin cool!

Originally Posted by runningdeer

Hi...this might seem like a silly question, but is the color of the Pacific ocean the same color throughout? Or is it green here and blue there kinda thing?

Well I served 3 years in the Pacific, and in my homes in either Vancouver or San Diego I am within a couple miles of the coast. I have seen alot of the Pacific. It certainly changes depending on where you are.

The main reason they came up with Dazzle in the first place was because there is no one color that will work. Look at Navies today, some are grey, some greenish-grey.. some are robin's egg blue. It may be perfect on an overcast day, but you stand out on a clear day etc. Dazzle was the acceptance of "we are going to be seen", so they just tried to make it hard to judge shape, heading, speed etc. Remember these would have only been seen through a periscope and would have looked different then we seem them in the photos.

The pic of the USS West Mahomet that Task Force re-posted just above is the perfect example. Just imagine trying to place the bow on that, in rough seas in the North Atlantic, through a periscope. What Task Force is missing is that nobody expected it to ever conceal, it is meant to confuse.

~ Edit.. All this Dazzle talk really does make we want a WWI subsim based on the SH engine... imagine DDs painted up all pretty like the one in my sig... ahhhh

[runningdeer]

Thanks Highbury.

I think i would like to nail down this dark blue they used. Then skin a sub. .

[Highbury]

Well the USN had a number for all the colors, and patterns they used. If you can find the number then it would be pretty easy. Actually modelling websites have alot of info on the colors used by USN ships, example:

http://www.steelnavy.com/usnchips.htm

The book discussed on that site about US Camo patterns called SHIPS-2, I have found a link to the 1942 revision 2 if that is of any use:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/camo/index.htm


Hope that helps

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Why does my Avatar say The Chinese Sailor in Japanese under it? lol

[runningdeer]

Originally Posted by Highbury

Well the USN had a number for all the colors, and patterns they used. If you can find the number then it would be pretty easy. Actually modelling websites have alot of info on the colors used by USN ships, example:

http://www.steelnavy.com/usnchips.htm

The book discussed on that site about US Camo patterns called SHIPS-2, I have found a link to the 1942 revision 2 if that is of any use:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/camo/index.htm


Hope that helps

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Why does my Avatar say The Chinese Sailor in Japanese under it? lol

Thank you vm...very useful link.

LOL...yeah, well...post a bunch today and by tonight you'll be another character .

Look at my avatars fancy hat .

I believe if you contribute $ you can choose a custom avatar.

[Task Force]

Originally Posted by runningdeer

Thank you vm...very useful link.

LOL...yeah, well...post a bunch today and by tonight you'll be another character .

Look at my avatars fancy hat .

I believe if you contribute $ you can choose a custom avatar.

LOL You got MEDIC!!! well... It could be worse.:rotfl:

[Highbury]

Originally Posted by Task Force

LOL You got MEDIC!!! well... It could be worse.:rotfl:

He is at 168.... his "One Night In Bankok" is comin'... 179 IIRC