turkey stalls NATO over reasons of religion and freedom of speech

do you really believe that all the muslim world outraged over the cartoons did not know it was behaving ridiculous and hysteric?

Even though I agreed to your postings before and I never even remotely touched this topic, which makes me wonder why you ask me this question, I will state "no". I do not believe that.

But I believe that every country is more diverse then just one big block we put all our prejudices upon.
That those in power are not interested in a change of policy is a given. I do not expect any effects taking place anytime soon, Germany required 101 years from the first democratic attempts in the revolution of 1848 to the first working and lasting one in 1949, and it required several unification wars and two world wars to achieve this.
And Turkey has much more potential for a democratic islamic society based on human rights then I think she is given credit for.

But this is not so much about results "now", but investing into the future.

[Agiel7]

I was under the impression that Ataturk saw to it that religion never got in the way of that sort of thing.

Wonderful country to by the way.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Agiel7

I was under the impression that Ataturk saw to it that religion never got in the way of that sort of thing.

Wonderful country to by the way.

Ataturk is under deconstruction sicne several years, thanks to erdoghan and the fundamentalist AKP party, which is nothing else but arch-islamic. If Ataturk would still rule the country and his intentions as expressed in the comstitution would still be honoured, the AKP would sit in prison. And actually, Erdoghan and many AKP officials did. It is last but not least due to Western pressure on the Turkish military to give up it's constitutional role to protect the state against Islam, callingthat "democracy", that has led Turkey to this massive re-Islamisation of the state structures again. But when "democracy" gets abused to install a totalitarian religious doctrine, of what use is this democracy then? It turns into a threat to itself and to others, that'S all. even democracy must know limits, beacause beyond these it starts to destroy itself - and that can hardly be the goal of democracy, or freedom, or tolerance.

[JALU3]

Skybird I agree that religion should be a non-issue when making military decisions, and that no religion should have a special say on any specific action. Granted ones religion will have a significant influence on one's moral and ethical values, but a religion itself as an institution, should not have a direct say.

As for Pakistan, and the new Great Game, the biggest problemn that NATO forces have in Afghanistan is moving supplies to forces there. With a non-compliant Russia attempting to mitigate increased US & Western European influence in Central Asia, and a non-helpful Iran, the only other supply route available to US and NATO forces is through Pakistan. Therefore, NATO and the US must have positive relations with said country in order to garuntee its supply routes. In the previous Great Game, there was a British controlled India/Pakistan to garuntee said access into Central Asia. This is no such garuntee now, thus leading to the relationship the US has with Pakistan today. Sure there is the route through contested Kashmir, or even a much longer route via the PRC, however the most direct is from the Arabian Sea.

What I find interesting though through all this, is the leaning towards a more fundamentalist government in previously secular muslim dominate nations. This can be said about both Turkey and Pakistan, where as in the past the secular nature of the government was garunteed by a strong secular military, something that is not supported by the West, that is the Military having a strong influence on a nation's politics. I think a lot can be discussed regarding the strength of religious parties in muslim majority nations, and how increase of those parties representation in those countries governments have a direct impact on their relations with Western Secular nations.

Skybird I agree that religion should be a non-issue when making military decisions

So the military aspect of this dispute was that Denmark is hosting an alledged propaganda outfit from a proscribed terrorist organisation that is engaged in attacking Denmarks Ally .

[JALU3]

Was this Kurdish radio station connected to said terrorist organization? Or was it just because they catered to a specific ethnic nation which they have a problem with?

[Skybird]

The radio station was not the main reason for the Turkish stand against Rasmussen, it was his lacking compliance when demanded to forbid those newspapers printing the muhammad cartoons.

[Skybird]

Islam and democracy are as mutually exclusive as fashism and multiculturalism. That simply does not make sense, and bares any meaning. In an islamic democracy, Islam always goes first, and those necessary characteristics needed to call a demco9arcy a demcioracy, necessartily must be cut off since they violate basic elem,ents of self-definition of islam. I have been several months in Turkey, and all in all I do not like it. Iran for example I liked much more (which does not mean that i "liked" it, but I prefer it to Turkey any time). In turkey, there is a tremendous difference between the wetsernised metropöpoles and tourist centres, and the rural areas that fporm most of the country, the mentality of people in these rural areas, holding around 80% of the population, is looking forward to material improvements, but it also is - and always has been! - extremely conservative and hostile toWetsern modernisation and western values, and is very patriarchalic and very truly islamic indeed. It is not my random chance that islam held it'S wintersleep during the Kemalistic episode in these places, not in the major cities. By tendency, you have slightly more pro-.western attitude in the cities, in the business world, and if the vast majority ofTurks would be like that, then I could eventually arrange myself with it. but they are not the majority, but a small minority indeed. the majority is backwardly, archaic, and extremely conswervative. This is also the reason why so many German turks find it difficult to return to Turkey even if they would want that - becasue most of them, by their family roots, do not come from the business class, the burgeoise, and the major cities, but the rural places and villages. While in gemrany they are already too muchresisting to integration and too islamic and turkish-nationalistic, in these places in turkey they are already almost traitors to the Turkish and islamic cause, corrupted by Wetsern living style.

Stop hoping for this western modernisation of Islam. It is our own arrogance to think we would change and lecture Islam about itself and chnage the content of the Quran which is the adamant basis of anything worth to be called Islam. euro-Islam - is nothing but a European self-deception, wasting time until it is too late (if it isn't already). It maikes as much sense to wait for that as it made sense to wait for the Thiord Reich turning into a democracy all by itself. It did not bhappen back then, and it will not happen today. and in Afghnaistan western soldiers fight for a corrupt government establishing slavery and isolamic sharia again, goving money to it, and paving the way for blossoming drug industry run by criminal clans. That much we - non-Islamic infidels and outsiders - understand about how to modernise Islam and enforce a rewritten Quran upon them, spiced up by our fantastic values unwilling to self-defend. If it wouldn't be so serious, I could laugh tears and tears about our folly and overstimation of ourselves. they want our money, and our wealth, and our power, and our fall, all for free without forming the cultural basis themselves to develope all that by thmeselves.

Where the hell is it written that they also want our values and understandngs of what freedom and democracy is...??? Our understanding of democracy and freedom and rights is a heretic violation of Quranic teaching. It is not up to man to rewrite the will of Allah, even less if man is not a worthy human, but just an infidel who eiether is to become muslim, or is to die. Travelling in several of "their" countries I must say it was a strict exception from the rule hearing somebody expressing such desires, to copy pour models in their countries. sometimes they were curoius to see them in our homes - but mostly only in the meaning of having a memory of a touristic attraction before Islam came and destroyed it/turned it over.


Grrr, I was about Turkey only, but as always with Islam I too easily get triggered. I leave it to this, therefore.