Is Moscow still hoping for a nuclear showdown or what ?

CCIP · 03-29-06, 06:21 PM

I'm not anti-Western. I live in the west and embrace it, though conditionally. I've great admiration for a huge number of Western values; I'm no less Western than any of you here. I've certainly heaped my piles of scorn on Russian authorities - far more so than on any other authority. What I am is not anti-western - I am anti-right-wing. And that's no foreign idea.

Nor is Russia anti-western - rather, I've observed the opposite.

Tell me now, why should Russia get in bed with the West? What did the West do for Russia? So far, I have to say that Russia's mistrust is merely a justified response.

Russia has paid a huge price for Western ventures over the last 300 years at least. It has participated in every major European conflict since 1700, generally allied with one of the Western powers. What does it get for it?

Some of the most celebrated Russian military achievements were in the late 18th century against the Turks, under commanders like Suvorov. But other than fame, Russians have little to show for their efforts - in fact, Austria gave back virtually everything that the Russian troops helped take from Turkey after negotiations. 1812 - Napoleon. A catastrophe for a huge number of Russian people, but he was ultimately stopped. And 230 years later, they'd take on a much bigger fish. Crimean War - there's your love from the west (a terrible and generally forgotten conflict). World War I - it was tensions between the Western powers that launched off that one, and Russia paid for it (and their yet-another attempt to be involved) more than anyone else. Communism - for those who don't know - was invented by Germans living in Britain. The Russian revolution was an experiment of purely Western ideas. Its spectacular failure cost all of Europe a lot, but Russians the most. World War II - don't even get me started. Cold War, although that was a two-player game.

The bottom line is, Russia has paid a terrible price over the last 300 years for being involved in the West's power games. There is no tragedy in world history comparable to that of the Russian people in the last few centuries. What did they get in return? Scorn and a downright snobbish attitude. They won nothing, and are now in dire straits of their decaying country, while some of these fine Westerners here seem to be content to sit around and speculate at their next supposedly-villainous move.

And you wonder why Russia should have great love for the west?

03-29-06, 06:21 PM	#29
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	I'm not anti-Western. I live in the west and embrace it, though conditionally. I've great admiration for a huge number of Western values; I'm no less Western than any of you here. I've certainly heaped my piles of scorn on Russian authorities - far more so than on any other authority. What I am is not anti-western - I am anti-right-wing. And that's no foreign idea. Nor is Russia anti-western - rather, I've observed the opposite. Tell me now, why should Russia get in bed with the West? What did the West do for Russia? So far, I have to say that Russia's mistrust is merely a justified response. Russia has paid a huge price for Western ventures over the last 300 years at least. It has participated in every major European conflict since 1700, generally allied with one of the Western powers. What does it get for it? Some of the most celebrated Russian military achievements were in the late 18th century against the Turks, under commanders like Suvorov. But other than fame, Russians have little to show for their efforts - in fact, Austria gave back virtually everything that the Russian troops helped take from Turkey after negotiations. 1812 - Napoleon. A catastrophe for a huge number of Russian people, but he was ultimately stopped. And 230 years later, they'd take on a much bigger fish. Crimean War - there's your love from the west (a terrible and generally forgotten conflict). World War I - it was tensions between the Western powers that launched off that one, and Russia paid for it (and their yet-another attempt to be involved) more than anyone else. Communism - for those who don't know - was invented by Germans living in Britain. The Russian revolution was an experiment of purely Western ideas. Its spectacular failure cost all of Europe a lot, but Russians the most. World War II - don't even get me started. Cold War, although that was a two-player game. The bottom line is, Russia has paid a terrible price over the last 300 years for being involved in the West's power games. There is no tragedy in world history comparable to that of the Russian people in the last few centuries. What did they get in return? Scorn and a downright snobbish attitude. They won nothing, and are now in dire straits of their decaying country, while some of these fine Westerners here seem to be content to sit around and speculate at their next supposedly-villainous move. And you wonder why Russia should have great love for the west? __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)