I need better fuel economy here, a 4 cyl would help!! - Page 2

groomsie · 09-29-08, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CobraDriver

I even went as far as coming to a complete stop to recharge my batteries so I wouldn't burn gas and still didn't make it.

The diesels are still running to charge the batteries, so this too consumes fuel. I think the only way to consume no fuel is to have a full battery charge and not move--I do this some when loitering on station but it is no good for transiting obviously.

Allowing you to recharge at a complete stop without consuming fuel would amount to a free lunch.

SteamWake · 09-29-08, 08:45 PM

Comming to a complete stop to recharge?!

What is that supposed to accomplish. Your batteries are going to recharge wether or not you making headway.

Seminole · 09-30-08, 06:51 AM

For one thing..you don't burn any fuel while the batteries recharge...and even though it is most unrealisitc to reharge while the diesels are idle .....it is a fact of life in SHIV World...sorta like the stars being closer to earth than the clouds...

Oh..forgot to add...after you are fully recharged you can then resume steaming with recharge batteries "off" which increases fuel range efficiency...enormously.

You could of course simply turn off recharging but some skippers don't feel at ease traveling with batteries not fully charged.

Diopos · 09-30-08, 07:06 AM

OK groomsie, Seminole and SteamWake.
Please put your cards (mods) on the table.
The battery recharging at zero surface speed and an empty diesel tank was a supposed to be an early stock version bug! Am I right? The ability to recharge at zero surface speed with no fuel consumption is still a bug! Groomsie how did you deduce there is no fuel consumption?

@ Seminole & SteamWake,
there are posts which state that during battery recharge all diesel engines work at "maximum". If you're static your batteries charge faster. If you're moving the highre your speed the lower the battery recharge rate!

DID YOU LIE AT ME!

I think I must walk the I-must-experiment-plank!

groomsie · 09-30-08, 07:26 AM

Nope, my point was I thought you always burned fuel on a recharge, irrespective of speed. That would be realistic (after all, the battery is simply storing the energy generated by--you guessed it--the generator, which is turned by (surprise) the diesels).

I understood that recharging at all stop with no fuel consumption was a bug in older SH versions (prior to IV), but I thought it was corrected here. If that bug is still present it is certainly unrealistic and would be nice to have corrected.

Bottom line, it should cost you a certain amount of fuel to place a certain amount of energy into the batteries. Period.

groomsie · 09-30-08, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groomsie

Quote:

Originally Posted by CobraDriver

I even went as far as coming to a complete stop to recharge my batteries so I wouldn't burn gas and still didn't make it.

The diesels are still running to charge the batteries, so this too consumes fuel. I think the only way to consume no fuel is to have a full battery charge and not move--I do this some when loitering on station but it is no good for transiting obviously.

Allowing you to recharge at a complete stop without consuming fuel would amount to a free lunch.

Maybe I got too "cute" with my wording and made it confusing. If I have a full battery charge (100%) and don't move, no (very little) energy is needed. Anything else should be consuming fuel. So sometimes when on station and waiting I'll sit in one spot rather than just burn fuel (and if the batteries are topped off that should not be consuming fuel). Sorry for any confusion stemming from my post.

Quillan · 09-30-08, 08:37 AM

Even with a fully charged battery set, you still burn fuel sitting still on the surface. It's just not much. Once I'd been sent on a 7 day patrol of the Marshal Islands (where there are no ships, not even friendly). I spent the entire week stationary on the surface, and burned off 2% diesel while doing so.

SteamWake · 09-30-08, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quillan

Even with a fully charged battery set, you still burn fuel sitting still on the surface. It's just not much. Once I'd been sent on a 7 day patrol of the Marshal Islands (where there are no ships, not even friendly). I spent the entire week stationary on the surface, and burned off 2% diesel while doing so.

Hey you got to keep that Ice Cream Maker working you know.

SteamWake · 09-30-08, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diopos

@ Seminole & SteamWake,
there are posts which state that during battery recharge all diesel engines work at "maximum". If you're static your batteries charge faster. If you're moving the highre your speed the lower the battery recharge rate!

DID YOU LIE AT ME!

Never claimed such a thing, in fact I stated that in the game it appears that the batteries recharge at a constant rate regardless of 'throttle' settings. If there is a difference it is not enough for me to notice. So sitting still or all ahead flank the batterys charge.

Just keep it at around 9 knots and you will be okay. The thing is you will consume more fuel while recharging at 9 knots than when your not recharging. But... your still doing 9 knots.

This is contrary to 'real life' where what you state would be true.

groomsie · 09-30-08, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quillan

Even with a fully charged battery set, you still burn fuel sitting still on the surface. It's just not much. Once I'd been sent on a 7 day patrol of the Marshal Islands (where there are no ships, not even friendly). I spent the entire week stationary on the surface, and burned off 2% diesel while doing so.

And to me that seems to be as it should be...after all, even sitting stationary you will have an electric demand to satisfy (unless you sit cold and dark...) to run lights, radar, ventillation, etc... Not sure if 2% seems high or low, but I agree it should be something.

groomsie · 09-30-08, 11:09 AM

Well, my understanding of "real life" is to charge batteries the engineers placed engines on the generator, and the engines on the generator ran at capacity to recharge the battery. With 4 engines available, I think typical was to place 1 on generator and anywhere from 1 to 3 on propulsion (depending on if they needed to go anywhere and--if so--how fast they needed to get there).

So, if you assume 1 engine on generator at capacity then I'd think that while charging the fuel consumed should be equal to a single diesel running at capactity for the duration of the charge.

I don't think speed was impacted per se unless at the upper ends of the range when that 4th engine would be called into service--since it isn't available for propulsion but instead being used to recharge then the speed would be impacted.

For the game though it seems to model only 2 engines (and we can't control them imdividually) with a speed reduction at all requested engine orders while the batteries are being charged. A simplification that deviates from reality but so be it. It would be cool if all 4 engines were in fact modeled and brought on / taken off line as needed for charging and propulsion needs. Not sure if that could be done in a mod (or if the benefit is worth it if it could). My gut feeling is it is hard-coded.

SteamWake · 09-30-08, 11:40 AM

Way I understand it the generators are always inline and provide power to electic motors for standard propulsion. Similar to modern day diesel electic locomotives.

In a charging state some of that current is diverted (and rectified) into a charging system therefore the electric motors recieve less energy and run slower.

On an assumption I would think that only two out of the four engines actually had the charging apparatus connected to them. Somewhere there is a link that describes in detail the whole of the system but I was un-able to find it. If I do Ill edit it in.

Here is the link http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/diesel/index.htm

Pretty heady reading... enjoy.

groomsie · 09-30-08, 02:45 PM

I found the next chapter to be more relevant to this side-topic though:

Generators: http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/elect/chap2.htm#2A

Diagram: http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/ele...ut/fig2-01.htm

It indicates that a single generator (or any combination of all 4) can be used for charging batteries or propulsion. Also apparently an auxiliary diesel generator that could be used for auxiliary load, slow charge of battery, or for even main propulsion (via the main battery) at slow speeds. Interesting.

CobraDriver · 09-30-08, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seminole

Learn and use Shift G and Ctrl G these keys are key...they are your fuel friends.

Ok with all the great responses for a question, I feel abliged to post an update from all this great help.

First off 9.5 is the way to go, I am patrolling and cruising for 14 k plus miles when my trips are 2-3 k so no issues there

Second this post regarding Ctrl G / Shift G is a beautiful thing.

It just makes you feel good to see you are very much inside your fuel window, very nice and I thank you for that 1. I use it all the time just because.

CD

SteamWake · 09-30-08, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groomsie

I found the next chapter to be more relevant to this side-topic though:

Generators: http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/elect/chap2.htm#2A

Diagram: http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/ele...ut/fig2-01.htm

It indicates that a single generator (or any combination of all 4) can be used for charging batteries or propulsion. Also apparently an auxiliary diesel generator that could be used for auxiliary load, slow charge of battery, or for even main propulsion (via the main battery) at slow speeds. Interesting.

Shame it is not modeled in the game.

Lose two engines and your hosed... :hmm:

09-30-08, 06:51 AM	#18
Seminole Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,012 Downloads: 102 Uploads: 0	For one thing..you don't burn any fuel while the batteries recharge...and even though it is most unrealisitc to reharge while the diesels are idle .....it is a fact of life in SHIV World...sorta like the stars being closer to earth than the clouds... Oh..forgot to add...after you are fully recharged you can then resume steaming with recharge batteries "off" which increases fuel range efficiency...enormously. You could of course simply turn off recharging but some skippers don't feel at ease traveling with batteries not fully charged. __________________

09-30-08, 07:06 AM	#19
Diopos Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Athens, the original one. Posts: 1,226 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	OK groomsie, Seminole and SteamWake. Please put your cards (mods) on the table. The battery recharging at zero surface speed and an empty diesel tank was a supposed to be an early stock version bug! Am I right? The ability to recharge at zero surface speed with no fuel consumption is still a bug! Groomsie how did you deduce there is no fuel consumption? @ Seminole & SteamWake, there are posts which state that during battery recharge all diesel engines work at "maximum". If you're static your batteries charge faster. If you're moving the highre your speed the lower the battery recharge rate! DID YOU LIE AT ME! I think I must walk the I-must-experiment-plank! __________________ - Oh God! They're all over the place! CRASH DIVE!!! - Ehm... we can't honey. We're in the car right now. - What?... er right... Doesn't matter! We'll give it a try anyway!

09-30-08, 08:37 AM	#22
Quillan Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 579 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Even with a fully charged battery set, you still burn fuel sitting still on the surface. It's just not much. Once I'd been sent on a 7 day patrol of the Marshal Islands (where there are no ships, not even friendly). I spent the entire week stationary on the surface, and burned off 2% diesel while doing so. __________________ We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

09-30-08, 11:09 AM	#26
groomsie Electrician's Mate Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Stoughton, WI Posts: 140 Downloads: 50 Uploads: 0	Real Life... Well, my understanding of "real life" is to charge batteries the engineers placed engines on the generator, and the engines on the generator ran at capacity to recharge the battery. With 4 engines available, I think typical was to place 1 on generator and anywhere from 1 to 3 on propulsion (depending on if they needed to go anywhere and--if so--how fast they needed to get there). So, if you assume 1 engine on generator at capacity then I'd think that while charging the fuel consumed should be equal to a single diesel running at capactity for the duration of the charge. I don't think speed was impacted per se unless at the upper ends of the range when that 4th engine would be called into service--since it isn't available for propulsion but instead being used to recharge then the speed would be impacted. For the game though it seems to model only 2 engines (and we can't control them imdividually) with a speed reduction at all requested engine orders while the batteries are being charged. A simplification that deviates from reality but so be it. It would be cool if all 4 engines were in fact modeled and brought on / taken off line as needed for charging and propulsion needs. Not sure if that could be done in a mod (or if the benefit is worth it if it could). My gut feeling is it is hard-coded.

09-30-08, 02:45 PM	#28
groomsie Electrician's Mate Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Stoughton, WI Posts: 140 Downloads: 50 Uploads: 0	Cool Reference... I found the next chapter to be more relevant to this side-topic though: Generators: http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/elect/chap2.htm#2A Diagram: http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/ele...ut/fig2-01.htm It indicates that a single generator (or any combination of all 4) can be used for charging batteries or propulsion. Also apparently an auxiliary diesel generator that could be used for auxiliary load, slow charge of battery, or for even main propulsion (via the main battery) at slow speeds. Interesting.

09-29-08, 08:45 PM	#17
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Comming to a complete stop to recharge?! What is that supposed to accomplish. Your batteries are going to recharge wether or not you making headway.

09-30-08, 07:26 AM	#20
groomsie Electrician's Mate Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Stoughton, WI Posts: 140 Downloads: 50 Uploads: 0	Nope, my point was I thought you always burned fuel on a recharge, irrespective of speed. That would be realistic (after all, the battery is simply storing the energy generated by--you guessed it--the generator, which is turned by (surprise) the diesels). I understood that recharging at all stop with no fuel consumption was a bug in older SH versions (prior to IV), but I thought it was corrected here. If that bug is still present it is certainly unrealistic and would be nice to have corrected. Bottom line, it should cost you a certain amount of fuel to place a certain amount of energy into the batteries. Period.

09-30-08, 11:40 AM	#27
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Way I understand it the generators are always inline and provide power to electic motors for standard propulsion. Similar to modern day diesel electic locomotives. In a charging state some of that current is diverted (and rectified) into a charging system therefore the electric motors recieve less energy and run slower. On an assumption I would think that only two out of the four engines actually had the charging apparatus connected to them. Somewhere there is a link that describes in detail the whole of the system but I was un-able to find it. If I do Ill edit it in. Here is the link http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/diesel/index.htm Pretty heady reading... enjoy.