Question conerning geck gun attacks

[John W. Hamm]

From time to time I read that some parts of ships are not as well protected and by placing a well aimed shot depending on the type of ship, you can sink them with ease, I use the newest verion of RFB.

The issue is I attacked a medium old freighter I had only 1 torpedo left so I took aim and hit at the rear of the ship near the prop, she took on a bit of water and isted according, and she even slowed a souple of knots.

So I was forced to surface and whip out the old deck gun I more than likely put about 82 shots (all I had left) all in the same place (waterline rear right by the propellers) and would you believe I didn't even put a dent in it !!! not one scratch hell I bet it didn't even bend a screw. needless to say no speed was ever lost. I just thought I might mention this

[UnderseaLcpl]

I have never experienced this repeated phenomenon of taking scores of shells to sink a ship but with some of the sinking mechanics mods I may not be aware of it could be possible.

Aiming for the stern is a bad idea for quick sinking. Aim for the bow, in my experience. It seems very much like their props drive them underwater in sometimes spectacular imitations of crash dives.

Also "the waterline" is a bit nebulous to me. I almost always aim for exactly where the hull and the water meet but I suspect that a shell can hit the water and pass through it to strike even lower. In calm seas if the holes you make don't go underwater at least fairly frequently, she will sink much more slowly.

[schurem]

Actually, with some practice, you should be able to consistently put shells into your target at two to three feet below the waterline.

Don't put all your shells in the same spot, but after about seven shots, shift your aim a bit. There's the bow to aim for, and another good target is her boiler room, below the funnel.

Good luck and have fun!

[Schroeder]

Odd that you mentioned that today. I was just about to look through the mod section to learn how to tweak the gunfiles myself after haveing that experience yesterday night:
I had a medium old frighter which I had already hit with 3 (!!!) MK10 torpedoes. It listed heavily but still refused to sink. No way I could finish her off with the deck gun.
Not one scratch after 50 rounds (!!!) most of them close to the waterline or (as intended) slightly below. No matter what ammo I used the hull wasn't breached.
And reloading times of almost 30sec per round seems a bit slow to me too.


I'm using RFB 031408 and NSM 4.0.

[Feltan]

In my opinion, RFB (which I use) nerfs deck guns to the point of almost uselessness. In stock, I believe they were too powerful -- but not terribly so.

In RFB, both the damage model and rate-of-fire needs to be bumped up. Historical testimonies simply can't be replicated at all. Sampans taking a couple of dozen 3 or 4 inch shots? Oh please -- they would enter Davey Jones Locker with one or two.

An unmolested medium frighter is a bit different. I can only recall one historical souce, and it took (IIRC) about 90 shots from the deck gun for a 1500 tonner. However, that was accomplished in about 15 minutes.

Regards,
Feltan

Originally Posted by Feltan

In my opinion, RFB (which I use) nerfs deck guns to the point of almost uselessness. In stock, I believe they were too powerful -- but not terribly so.

In RFB, both the damage model and rate-of-fire needs to be bumped up. Historical testimonies simply can't be replicated at all. Sampans taking a couple of dozen 3 or 4 inch shots? Oh please -- they would enter Davey Jones Locker with one or two.

An unmolested medium frighter is a bit different. I can only recall one historical souce, and it took (IIRC) about 90 shots from the deck gun for a 1500 tonner. However, that was accomplished in about 15 minutes.

Regards,
Feltan

The Deck Guns in Stock are too powerful. I play a roughly stock version (no RFB) and I've taken medium freighters out with between 30-45 shots, depending on where those shots landed.

To topic creator: As I said I play a roughly stock game, don't know if this applies towards RFB but I seem to have better luck with AP rounds below the water line 10-12 confirmed hits, then another10-12 HE rounds into the boiler or command deck.

[Rockin Robbins]

Yes, deck guns in RFB and TMO are nerfed to the point of real life. It routinely took over 100 shells fired over a period of 30 minutes or so to sink a ship. Some ships, like empty tankers were almost impossible to sink, even with torpedoes.

You also handicapped yourself by your shooting style. This tip works with torpedoes too, by the way. SH4 does not recognize additional damage in the same spot by subsequent hits. A dozen torpedoes hitting at the same spot won't do much more damage than one. Same with shells. In effect, you flushed 81 shots down the toilet.

The way to sink targets in SH4 is to distribute the hits along the water line. Then the ship will leak along its entire length and sink. With torpedoes, I almost always shoot two. The first is aimed at 1/4 of the length back from the bow, the second 1/4 of the way forward of the stern. This will play taps for just about any ship you want to hit.

Take advantage of the damage model. Don't shoot the same place twice. Good hunting!

If none of this works you might get rid of that geck gun and get a deck gun!:rotfl:

[Feltan]

Rockin Robbin,

So, I am going to have to disagree.

I don't have the notes I made, but I actually used the stop watch on the reload times, and counted hits.

Difficult to develop any concrete and quantifiable estimates. However, my sense is this:

Stock overgunned effectiveness by about a factor of 2.

RFB with additional mods I run, underguns by about a factor of 3.

Somewhere in between those two (without attempting scientific precision) lies a happy compromise.

Regards,
Feltan

[LukeFF]

If you're talking about the 3"/50 deck gun for RFB, there's a reason why it's as ineffective as it is: it was originally designed as an AA gun during WWI. As 3" = 76.2 mm, it's not a very big round. Its closest counterpart, the 88 mm, was not that great of an anti-shipping weapon, either. Many accounts do confirm the ineffectiveness of the 3" as an effective deck-mounted armament for submarines.

Even so, I'm not going to get into a debate here about deck gun effectiveness. We've gone over this time and time again, so look up the threads that deal with this issue (hint: look for threads written by Beery).

[Feltan]

Luke,

I understand.

However, when a sampan can withstand two dozen rounds along the waterline, there is something amiss.

Regards,
Feltan

[akdavis]

I'm sinking sampans (the smaller variety) with 4 hits from the 3-inch gun. Seeing as the round passes straight through the target, creating 8 3-inch holes to quickly sink a sampan seems reasonable.

[Suicide Charlie]

Hmm... I've never had that problem Feltan. Although, I do play with TMO not RFB. In fact, I just encountered a fleet of fishing boats the other day. I surfaced and went to work. I think the most shells a boat took was six and that was because she was quite a ways off and I kept tagging her mast.

I like to think that I have quite a bit of experience with deckguns. I really treasured my torpedos and quite frequently if the situation allowed it I would surface and use my gun instead of expending torpedos which I try to really save for juicy military targets or convoys.

It's entirely possible to punch holes below the water line. In fact, I've found that your crew is pretty adapt at it on it's own. Last night I spotted a single merchant in the Bungo Straits. She was riding very low in the water so I put two fish in her. One was right under the stack which is standard procedure and the other straight into the forward hold. I got a second explosion from the fish that went under the stack and just the impact spash from the one into the hold. Despite the two huge gaping holes, the list, and greatly reduced speed she didn't seem to intent on going down. So, I surface and put a few rounds in her. I was about 600 yards away so I eventually let my crew fire on it's one. With one shot under the waterline she went down. It was amazing, especially comsidering the fact that I couldn't get the elavation low enough myself to shoot under the water line.

When shooting for the waterline you want to see a column of water shoot up and then a flash from the shell hitting the hull.

[Feltan]

Hmmmmm, wonder if the fickle finger of computer fate has dealt me a special hand?

Regards,
Feltan

[Doolan]

In fact the deck gun issue has been commented extensively by the RFB team. I also felt that, even though the stock one was brutally overpowered, the one in RFB (and RuB, for that matter) was vastly underpowered if the various accounts by sub skippers are to be trusted.

However, it is underpowered on purpose to reflect that even Stevie Wonder would have perfect aim the way SH4 is (the gun hardly rocks in high seas and it's in fact rather easy to hit things accurately without even zooming in).

It's a compromise really. You can put all your shells mostly where you want to, so if shell effectiveness were up to historical standards, the gun would STILL be overpowered based on the perfect hit rate and the complete lack of duds, ricochets, etc.

EDIT: Feltan is in fact completely right, at least in my experience.

With the latest RFB, it took about two dozen shells to sink a sampan.

Of course, the damage model in RFB / NSM probably doesn't have sampans as a priority and I understand any slips in this department, but it was rather strange when I came across a group of four and it took me about two hours of game time to send them all to the bottom with the deck gun.

And yes, I spread all my shots. In fact they didn't even "sink" as such, they just ended up catching fire, then sunk.

[LukeFF]

We're aware of inconsistencies with ship damage modeling in RFB/NSM and are working to correct it. Those who remember the NYGM mod from SH3 will be pleasantly surprised.