help with fixing the shokaku sinking charactoristics

06-09-08, 07:30 PM

im frustrated by the way the game has the damage model set for the ships.

mainly i want to change the shokaku, it must have a rice paper hull because it sinks every time no matter what with just one torpedo. the hiryu and the taiho sometimes sink with one torpedo but mostly take anywhere from 2 to 4 torpedos to sink. the smaller escort carrier akitsu needs 3 to 5 torpedos to sink and the taiyo only 1 to 2 will sink it.

in trying to fix this i changed the stock setting as follows:

armor - stock 35 << i went all the way to 100 and it had no effect
hit points - stock 550 << i went all the way to 3500 and it had no effect

even with armor set at 100 and hit points at 35000 it sank instantly with only 1 mark 14 torpedo. there is something besides hit points and armor that controls ships sinkability and sinking charactoristics but i dont understand what that is.

i need help understanding whats going on here and how i can change the shokaku to react the way the other fleet carriers do.

im playing stock 1.5 with no mods.

06-09-08, 07:46 PM

follow up:

the numbers shown above were found by running a single mission with stationary targets at anchor shootinhg mark 14 torpedos from a fixed position with auto target locked so the same spot was hit each time. i repeated the mission ten times and recorded the results listed above.

kv29 · 06-09-08, 08:39 PM

what about flooding times?

gimpy117 · 06-09-08, 10:48 PM

you guys really wanna pass up 30,000 easy tons???!!

06-10-08, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kv29

what about flooding times?

there is nothing in the ColisionableObject section and i cant find anything under SinkingEffects and asked in a few posts already about where they can be found but got no response.

where can flooding times be found for individual ships?

06-10-08, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimpy117

you guys really wanna pass up 30,000 easy tons???!!

while i am certainly no rivet counter i do want the sinking effects to be in line with what would be expected if you looked at a ships specs.

i mean things can happen if the curcomstances are perfect so it could be actually be possible to sink her with one torpedo but that would be the very rare exception and not the routine.

when you look at a ship on paper you can say, this ship would probably need "x" number of torpedos to be damaged enough to sink. going by that guideline i would like to have that be close to how it is represented in the game.

there are some other ships also that dont respond to changes in hit points and armor levels so whatever is controlling them is a different.

its as though there is a built in "cheat" so some ships will always sink too easy no matter what the hit points or armor levels are set to.

Arclight · 06-16-08, 01:16 PM

Can't it be argued it's a design flaw? Shokaku-type was conceived between wars, and we know what that did for the Mk.14.

IJN carriers were prone to vapor fires, Taiho blew itself appart some time after taking a single torpedo hit.

"One of the Taihō's strike pilots, Sakio Komatsu had just taken off when he saw the torpedo wakes and deliberately dived his plane on the path of a torpedo in a vain attempt to save his ship. One of the torpedoes hit Adm. Ozawa's flagship, the 31,000-ton carrier, the newest and largest floating air base in the Japanese fleet in a part where her armor is thickest. The explosion jammed the ship's forward aircraft elevator, and filled its pit with gasoline, water, and aviation fuel. However, no fire erupted, and the flight deck was unharmed. Ozawa was unconcerned by the hit (

) and launched two more waves of aircraft. Meanwhile, a novice took over the damage control responsibilities. He believed that the best way to handle gasoline fumes was to open up the ship's ventilation system and let them disperse throughout the ship (

). This action turned the ship into a floating time bomb. At 1330, a tremendous explosion jolted Taihō and blew out the sides of the carrier."

I'm using NSM, so hitpoints don't play a (large) part in the damage model. Still, a hit to the engine room or below the bridge will doom a Shokaku class carrier. If the model accurately models the way the ship was compartimentalized, I don't see the problem. I've been digging around for info on the hull designs, but I'm not turning up all that much, especially nothing to reinforce the theory.

You could get some material to consider here; http://www.combinedfleet.com/shoksink.htm

gimpy117 · 06-16-08, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WEBSTER

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimpy117

you guys really wanna pass up 30,000 easy tons???!!

while i am certainly no rivet counter i do want the sinking effects to be in line with what would be expected if you looked at a ships specs.

i mean things can happen if the curcomstances are perfect so it could be actually be possible to sink her with one torpedo but that would be the very rare exception and not the routine.

when you look at a ship on paper you can say, this ship would probably need "x" number of torpedos to be damaged enough to sink. going by that guideline i would like to have that be close to how it is represented in the game.

there are some other ships also that dont respond to changes in hit points and armor levels so whatever is controlling them is a different.

its as though there is a built in "cheat" so some ships will always sink too easy no matter what the hit points or armor levels are set to.

oh I was kidding anyways....1 torp is a little weak

Arclight · 06-17-08, 02:41 PM

Hit a Shokaku with 3 torps and didn't sink, all you have to do is hit it poorly. Don't see the problem.

Ducimus · 06-17-08, 04:02 PM

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...72&postcount=2
edit: No i never got around to fixiing it. Probably never will.

06-17-08, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arclight

Hit a Shokaku with 3 torps and didn't sink, all you have to do is hit it poorly. Don't see the problem.

what mods were you using was this in a campaign version or single mission?

i have yet to need more than one torpedo in any single mission stock 1.5 game using no mods

06-17-08, 05:21 PM

if anyone wants to see what i am talking about then try this single mission using stock version 1.5 and no mods.

http://files.filefront.com/WEBSTERs+.../fileinfo.html

you can see for yourself what the average number of torps it takes to sink the ships but results vary so try it at least 5 times before coming to any conclusions

Arclight · 06-17-08, 06:06 PM

Ok, I'm using NSM + PE, I think I mentioned NSM before;

I made a test mission, putting all 3 big carriers in a row: Hiryu in the back, Shokaku in the middle and Taiho up front. My boat is located at 90deg AOB to starboard of Shokaku at 2000m. I fire initial spread of 2 torps at default depth at high speed, contact pistol only; first at 1deg right spread from a starboard tube (1,3,5) and second at 1deg left spread from a port tube (2,4,6). Been firing like that for a couple of hours by now, I lost count.

Taiho consistently is wracked by secondary explosions from the second shot (1deg left spread), destroying the ship.

Shokaku consistently soaks up the damage and develops a moderate list to starboard. A third shot amidship finishes her of quick, listing badly while the bow sinks, the engine room is obviously her sweetspot. Single shots to the engine room before taking any damage cause a serious list, decks are partly submerged.

Hiryu seems to soak up the damage, only dropping the bow a bit. However, screams can be heard from the ship, as if it's sinking, but an hour later nothing seems to have changed. Third shot amidship drops the bow further to the waterline, give her a couple of minutes and she'll sink.

I also tried a different spread; first amidship, second 1deg right. Hiryu seems to shrug it off, without visable changes. Shokaku lists badly to starboard and the bow drops, decks partly submerged. Taiho develops a list to port (?!), bow drops slightly, screams as well.

My conclusion so far: Hiryu seems most resistant to damage, but the screams could very well indicate she would sink within hours. Taiho seems moderatly resistant, but also starts screaming. Shokaku has the most dramatic visable effects, implying indeed very low resistance to damage but is the only one that doesn't scream.

Whole thing has me puzzled. Gonna be comparing the files for all three to look for inconsistencies. Will toy with it some more and return the game to stock to see how that effects it. I'm willing to spend time on this and help if I can, I was a bit negative before because I didn't understand the motive. I know that if you hit a Shokaku at the port side in the engine room it will sink, but the whole thing is top heavy and the bridge is at port side as well, making it worse. To me, it all doesn't seem to illogical.

06-17-08, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arclight

Ok, I'm using NSM + PE, I think I mentioned NSM before;

yes, the key is im trying to get a reasonably expected torpedo kill rate from all ships in a stock unmodded game.

nsm makes big changes to all ships so its cant apply as a compared to stock version.

once i can get all the ships to be killed at a random but average number of torps, or at least as close as i can get them to be, it will make all added on mods even better as a result IMO.

Arclight · 06-17-08, 09:58 PM

Cool, and sorry for before. When someone yells "fire" I run off for an extinguisher without knowing where to bring it; I tend to get ahead of myself.

I've been firing lots of fish at her, and basically anything hitting midship or further aft but still forward of the screws will sink her in 1 hit. Under the right conditions she'll even withstand 2 hits (above screws + the bow). I can post a list of my findings if you want.

I increased the Armorlevel and hitpoints like you did, but I set them to Yamato levels (96 armor, 1500 hp); hits that normally sink it in 1 shot tend not to anymore. Took me 3 hits last try: 1 hit on the first mast aft from center, and she lived! Second went in the bow, but didn't blow a hole, presumably because of higher armor level. Bow still sank a bit though. Third went far aft and finished her of. Think you can leave the armorlevels alone, just increase hitpoints so she can take more hits.

Also tried messing with the "SH3ZonesCtrl" stuff; you'll see "sphere's" and "boxes" listed there. I think they represent the compartments of the ship, and changing there individual armorlevel settings seemed to influence the ships sinking times.

Guess you need a 3d editor to see where those zones are actually located. There's also a "type" listing that lists a number. In zones.cfg there's an index where you can look up what type of area those numbers represent (I think). For instance, the first box, "box 0", is type 113 which would translate to "KeelBB" according to that index. "box 1" is type 188, "BBFuelBunkers" in the index, etc.

I'll pick this up tomorrow, 5 am by now...

06-09-08, 07:30 PM	#1
Webster Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	help with fixing the shokaku sinking charactoristics im frustrated by the way the game has the damage model set for the ships. mainly i want to change the shokaku, it must have a rice paper hull because it sinks every time no matter what with just one torpedo. the hiryu and the taiho sometimes sink with one torpedo but mostly take anywhere from 2 to 4 torpedos to sink. the smaller escort carrier akitsu needs 3 to 5 torpedos to sink and the taiyo only 1 to 2 will sink it. in trying to fix this i changed the stock setting as follows: armor - stock 35 << i went all the way to 100 and it had no effect hit points - stock 550 << i went all the way to 3500 and it had no effect even with armor set at 100 and hit points at 35000 it sank instantly with only 1 mark 14 torpedo. there is something besides hit points and armor that controls ships sinkability and sinking charactoristics but i dont understand what that is. i need help understanding whats going on here and how i can change the shokaku to react the way the other fleet carriers do. im playing stock 1.5 with no mods.

06-09-08, 10:48 PM	#4
gimpy117 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 3,243 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 0	you guys really wanna pass up 30,000 easy tons???!! __________________ Member of the Subsim Zombie Army

06-16-08, 01:16 PM	#7
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Can't it be argued it's a design flaw? Shokaku-type was conceived between wars, and we know what that did for the Mk.14. IJN carriers were prone to vapor fires, Taiho blew itself appart some time after taking a single torpedo hit. "One of the Taihō's strike pilots, Sakio Komatsu had just taken off when he saw the torpedo wakes and deliberately dived his plane on the path of a torpedo in a vain attempt to save his ship. One of the torpedoes hit Adm. Ozawa's flagship, the 31,000-ton carrier, the newest and largest floating air base in the Japanese fleet in a part where her armor is thickest. The explosion jammed the ship's forward aircraft elevator, and filled its pit with gasoline, water, and aviation fuel. However, no fire erupted, and the flight deck was unharmed. Ozawa was unconcerned by the hit ( ) and launched two more waves of aircraft. Meanwhile, a novice took over the damage control responsibilities. He believed that the best way to handle gasoline fumes was to open up the ship's ventilation system and let them disperse throughout the ship ( ). This action turned the ship into a floating time bomb. At 1330, a tremendous explosion jolted Taihō and blew out the sides of the carrier." I'm using NSM, so hitpoints don't play a (large) part in the damage model. Still, a hit to the engine room or below the bridge will doom a Shokaku class carrier. If the model accurately models the way the ship was compartimentalized, I don't see the problem. I've been digging around for info on the hull designs, but I'm not turning up all that much, especially nothing to reinforce the theory. You could get some material to consider here; http://www.combinedfleet.com/shoksink.htm __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

06-17-08, 02:41 PM	#9
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Hit a Shokaku with 3 torps and didn't sink, all you have to do is hit it poorly. Don't see the problem. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

06-17-08, 05:21 PM	#12
Webster Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	if anyone wants to see what i am talking about then try this single mission using stock version 1.5 and no mods. http://files.filefront.com/WEBSTERs+.../fileinfo.html you can see for yourself what the average number of torps it takes to sink the ships but results vary so try it at least 5 times before coming to any conclusions Last edited by Webster; 01-20-09 at 11:13 PM.

06-09-08, 07:46 PM	#2
Webster Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	follow up: the numbers shown above were found by running a single mission with stationary targets at anchor shootinhg mark 14 torpedos from a fixed position with auto target locked so the same spot was hit each time. i repeated the mission ten times and recorded the results listed above.

06-09-08, 08:39 PM	#3
kv29 Watch Officer Join Date: May 2007 Location: Buenos Aires Posts: 342 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	what about flooding times?

06-17-08, 04:02 PM	#10
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...72&postcount=2 edit: No i never got around to fixiing it. Probably never will.

06-17-08, 06:06 PM	#13
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Ok, I'm using NSM + PE, I think I mentioned NSM before; I made a test mission, putting all 3 big carriers in a row: Hiryu in the back, Shokaku in the middle and Taiho up front. My boat is located at 90deg AOB to starboard of Shokaku at 2000m. I fire initial spread of 2 torps at default depth at high speed, contact pistol only; first at 1deg right spread from a starboard tube (1,3,5) and second at 1deg left spread from a port tube (2,4,6). Been firing like that for a couple of hours by now, I lost count. Taiho consistently is wracked by secondary explosions from the second shot (1deg left spread), destroying the ship. Shokaku consistently soaks up the damage and develops a moderate list to starboard. A third shot amidship finishes her of quick, listing badly while the bow sinks, the engine room is obviously her sweetspot. Single shots to the engine room before taking any damage cause a serious list, decks are partly submerged. Hiryu seems to soak up the damage, only dropping the bow a bit. However, screams can be heard from the ship, as if it's sinking, but an hour later nothing seems to have changed. Third shot amidship drops the bow further to the waterline, give her a couple of minutes and she'll sink. I also tried a different spread; first amidship, second 1deg right. Hiryu seems to shrug it off, without visable changes. Shokaku lists badly to starboard and the bow drops, decks partly submerged. Taiho develops a list to port (?!), bow drops slightly, screams as well. My conclusion so far: Hiryu seems most resistant to damage, but the screams could very well indicate she would sink within hours. Taiho seems moderatly resistant, but also starts screaming. Shokaku has the most dramatic visable effects, implying indeed very low resistance to damage but is the only one that doesn't scream. Whole thing has me puzzled. Gonna be comparing the files for all three to look for inconsistencies. Will toy with it some more and return the game to stock to see how that effects it. I'm willing to spend time on this and help if I can, I was a bit negative before because I didn't understand the motive. I know that if you hit a Shokaku at the port side in the engine room it will sink, but the whole thing is top heavy and the bridge is at port side as well, making it worse. To me, it all doesn't seem to illogical. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

06-17-08, 09:58 PM	#15
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Cool, and sorry for before. When someone yells "fire" I run off for an extinguisher without knowing where to bring it; I tend to get ahead of myself. I've been firing lots of fish at her, and basically anything hitting midship or further aft but still forward of the screws will sink her in 1 hit. Under the right conditions she'll even withstand 2 hits (above screws + the bow). I can post a list of my findings if you want. I increased the Armorlevel and hitpoints like you did, but I set them to Yamato levels (96 armor, 1500 hp); hits that normally sink it in 1 shot tend not to anymore. Took me 3 hits last try: 1 hit on the first mast aft from center, and she lived! Second went in the bow, but didn't blow a hole, presumably because of higher armor level. Bow still sank a bit though. Third went far aft and finished her of. Think you can leave the armorlevels alone, just increase hitpoints so she can take more hits. Also tried messing with the "SH3ZonesCtrl" stuff; you'll see "sphere's" and "boxes" listed there. I think they represent the compartments of the ship, and changing there individual armorlevel settings seemed to influence the ships sinking times. Guess you need a 3d editor to see where those zones are actually located. There's also a "type" listing that lists a number. In zones.cfg there's an index where you can look up what type of area those numbers represent (I think). For instance, the first box, "box 0", is type 113 which would translate to "KeelBB" according to that index. "box 1" is type 188, "BBFuelBunkers" in the index, etc. I'll pick this up tomorrow, 5 am by now... __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.