HMAS Sydney investigation

[Geno_Mariner]

I heard on the news this afternoon that the Australian army is starting their investigation into how HMAS Sydney and HSK Kormoran got sunk.

They suspect a submarine was involved.

Could it be a Japanese sub? I'm interested in what y'all think

[CCIP]

Starting? Suspect?

Strange, considering all the images that were received from its recent find were showing beyond any doubt that the Kormoran had sunk it, and even some of the people who claimed sub involvement had retracted their claims.

I think we pretty well know what happened to Sydney; the images show that Kormoran's crew gave an accurate account. Sydney's bridge and virtually all gun stations were destroyed very quickly by Kormoran's fire, only one turret would finally inflict the fatal damage on the Kormoran. It's still a mystery why the lifeboats weren't launched, but they certainly never were - and were found on the bottom next to the ship.

I don't think there's any room for alternative theories at this point.

[Geno_Mariner]

Yeah I agree with you.
If the Kormoran crew had already told what happened on that day, I don't quite see much room for other theories It's just silly to throw in a submarine theory when we have a fair idea of what has happened.

[CCIP]

Oh the sub idea floated many times before. I'd be surprised who exactly floated it this time, if they actually had - I mean sure, if it's a full official investigation, they will have to bring it up in order to positively exclude it. But last I heard, the consensus among researchers was pretty clear.

There's still going to be a lot of unknowns. I'm much more interested why the lifeboats didn't launch. I'm also sad that there's only accounts surviving from one side. I'm inclined to believe that the germans would've raised the battle flag before opening fire, but who knows... if they didn't, certainly paints Kormoran's feat in a different light.

[Geno_Mariner]

Yeah, that's true. Plus the relatives/family of those who died would need some sort of closure too.

On the Hunt for HMAS Sydney documentary. It was mentioned that Konorman was disguised as an merchant ship IIRC, so I don't really think they would've raised the battle flag. Raising it will only blow its cover.

[CCIP]

No, this is how raiders operated. According to international law, they could only fire with their battle flag raised (and that meant they could basically shoot it right up the mast and the moment it was on top, they could fire), so at any time when they approached and attacked another ship, they had to "blow their cover". If they had not done so in the case of the Sydney, they would have had to face a court and be convicted of criminal acts after the war, possibly with the ship's commander and officers facing death penalty for it (as was the case with the U-boat commander who fired on wreck survivors).

Not that I think they did that. But it's not nice to have a shadow of doubt over it because only one side's account survives.

[August]

Originally Posted by CCIP

It's still a mystery why the lifeboats weren't launched, but they certainly never were - and were found on the bottom next to the ship.

Wouldn't launching lifeboats require orders from the Captain? With all that damage to the bridge maybe there wasn't anyone able to give the order or they were'nt given until it was too late.

[Jimbuna]

Going by the damage to the bridge I should imagine the chain of command was well and truly broken.

Add to that the mayhem and confusion of being under direct fire and there, IMHO you have a plausable reason for why lifeboats weren't launched.

Originally Posted by August

Wouldn't launching lifeboats require orders from the Captain? With all that damage to the bridge maybe there wasn't anyone able to give the order or they were'nt given until it was too late.

The hypothosis from the Finding Sydney Foundation from the evidence they found in the dives on wrecks ,and from the German survivor staements , is when they unmasked the first shots took out the bridge and firecontrol, so the guns ended up being fought by the individual gun crews so there was no real effective return fire, (Still enough to severly damage Kormoran and cause her captain to abbandon ship and have her scuttled though), At the sametime Kormorans main guns were trying to kill sydney her light guns (20mm and 30mm) were sweeping the decks and structure to stop Sydney's crew from reaching their lighter guns.

The big killer though was the Torpedoe that hit just foreward of A turret , from what they can work out it seems the damage was more catastrophic than the crew though , after the ships disengaged and started sailing away ,Sydneys crew would have still have been trying to save the ship But it appears the Bow snapped off , flooding and sinking her within seconds and catching the crew at their damage control stations.

[August]

Originally Posted by darius359au

The hypothosis from the Finding Sydney Foundation from the evidence they found in the dives on wrecks ,and from the German survivor staements , is when they unmasked the first shots took out the bridge and firecontrol, so the guns ended up being fought by the individual gun crews so there was no real effective return fire (Still enough to severly damage Kormoran and cause her captain to abbandon ship and have her scuttled though).

The big killer though was the Torpedoe that hit just foreward of A turret , from what they can work out it seems the damage was more catastrophic than the crew though , after the ships disengaged and started sailing away ,the Sydneys crew would have still been trying to save the ship But it appears the Bow snapped off , flooding and sinking her within seconds and catching the crew at their damage control stations.

Right, and the few who might have made it off before she went under ended up in the drink drowning or dying of exposure. Sad, but still its a testament to the fighting spirit of the Australian sailor that they were still able to sink their assailant in spite of it all.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by darius359au

The hypothosis from the Finding Sydney Foundation from the evidence they found in the dives on wrecks ,and from the German survivor staements , is when they unmasked the first shots took out the bridge and firecontrol, so the guns ended up being fought by the individual gun crews so there was no real effective return fire, (Still enough to severly damage Kormoran and cause her captain to abbandon ship and have her scuttled though), At the sametime Kormorans main guns were trying to kill sydney her light guns (20mm and 30mm) were sweeping the decks and structure to stop Sydney's crew from reaching their lighter guns.

The big killer though was the Torpedoe that hit just foreward of A turret , from what they can work out it seems the damage was more catastrophic than the crew though , after the ships disengaged and started sailing away ,Sydneys crew would have still have been trying to save the ship But it appears the Bow snapped off , flooding and sinking her within seconds and catching the crew at their damage control stations.

Well I can and will certainly subscribe to that

[Jacky Fisher]

my guess is that the Komoran probably had the Sydney's vital sections pin-pointed before they opened fire. Or the Sydney's damage control really sucked.

[bookworm_020]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Well I can and will certainly subscribe to that

So do I. Most of the other theories that floated around over the years can be put where they deserve to be, the rubbish bin. I have no reason to doubt the German account, especialy now the wreck has been found and matches with their account.