UBER-Realism Thread

[siber]

Hi Everyone.

I've been looking though old threads, and notice congregations of kaleuns discussing and comparing notes on tactics, harbour raids, convoy attacks, boat types etc, but as far as I can see there isn't yet one single thread dealing with uber-realism. So, can I start one here?

I'd like to hear from other kaleuns that play with high realism settings, and mods to provide a more realistic, challenging and immersive simulation as opposed to an action game. Not that there's anything wrong with playing with auto-targetting and drooling at the beautiful graphics etc, but I'm actively targetting high-realism players.

For example:
I play GWX2.1 at 100% realism - an no external camera! - with OLC's GUI and environment to give taller waves (and less visibility). I always exit the game and restart upon returning to port, letting SH3Commander randomly transfer crewmen etc. I'll head for my assigned patrol grid, remaining there for 24hrs, before heading on a search pattern nearby if targets are not found. In order to try to achieve a realistic tonnage per patrol, I take no notice of single ships presented on the map, presuming that the majority of these would not be reported IRL. Convoys reported via the map I will pursue.

Unless using the stern torpedo tube, the minimum number of fish fired per target is 2, unless the shot is determined to have only a 'long-shot' chance of success. External reloads are only used with the boat at a complete stop with windspeed lower than 5m/s. All targets sighted are engaged unless they're a fishing boat or smaller, or a destroyer/corvette. Only battleships, cruisers and aircraft carriers are valid targets amongst enemy naval forces.

So, my question to other uber-realistic (or wannabe uber-realistic) players is this:
How do you ensure your gameplay is as accurate as possible? Which mods do you use? Do you have any advice about how I can better simulate real life experiences within the confines of SH3 as a computer game?

Also, I was wondering about GWX Enhanced Damage Effects... Can someone tell me whether this will cause stricken ships to sink faster due to explosions & fires etc? I can't say for sure, but I think that with EDEs enabled, ships seem to blow themselves to pieces long before they would otherwise flood and sink without EDEs. Comments anyone?

All feedback and responses gratefully received!

p.s. I doubt very much I'll ever have time to play without any time compression to simulate the boredom. I take that as read... and really can't be bothered to try it myself...

[onelifecrisis]

Interesting idea for a thread.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by siber

Also, I was wondering about GWX Enhanced Damage Effects... Can someone tell me whether this will cause stricken ships to sink faster due to explosions & fires etc? I can't say for sure, but I think that with EDEs enabled, ships seem to blow themselves to pieces long before they would otherwise flood and sink without EDEs. Comments anyone?

Hi!

The explosion and fire effects are more spectacular, but the hit points, damage caused by weapons hits, zones, etc., remain the same as without using EDE.

Sometimes you see the results more quickly than if the ship merely sank beneath the waves, but I attribute that (from a realism perspective) to things like steam explosions in the boiler room, etc., that can occur as the result of flooding a steam ship's boiler room, flammable or hazardous stores (chemicals and such) in the cargo, etc., that are not strictly modeled in Silent Hunter III.

Pablo

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

Interesting idea for a thread.

I believe you're correct, ships do sink easier with EDE (and also with SH4 Effects for SH3) because the extra explosions do additional damage to them. Without using those mods, I'm finding that "one ship one (impact) torpedo" sinks about two out of three merchants, and dreadnaughts almost always take more than one torp. Using EDE I found that one torp sinks almost any ship, almost every time. I don't know if that's more realistic or not... maybe the extra damage from EDE actually increases realism!? If anyone knows how many torpedos would typically be required to sink a ship IRL, I'm all ears!

Hi!

There is a section in the GWX manual where "VonHelsching" briefly wrote up the GWX approach to damage modeling, and that may help answer some of your questions.

AFAIK the explosions you see in EDE are merely cosmetic, and don't cause additional damage, since the only files modified are the particles (which affect the visuals) and the zones.cfg, which causes explosion effects but (should) not cause additional damage.

If you are patient enough for a ship to flood, most of the merchant ships in GWX can be sunk with one or two torpedoes because, IIRC, most of the merchant ships that were lost IRL went down with one or two torpedo hits: once you put a hole in the big cargo spaces, it's just a question of whether your ship has enough reserve buoyancy to stay afloat with a large flooded compartment.

Large warships could (but did not always) survive a couple of hits provided the ship could retain power for the pumps, and if the ship's compartmentalization could limit the flooding to a small volume of the ship, but the explosion could buckle a ship's deck plates, hull plates, and bulkheads and thereby allow water to leak further into the ship. For example, HMS Barham rolled over just a few minutes after being hit by three torpedoes from U-331; HMS Malaya survived a hit from U-106, but HMS Ark Royal was lost to a single torpedo from U-81, described in detail here. A lot depended on the exact type and location of damage, as well as the design and layout of the ship in question.

Silent Hunter III does not allow modeling of a lot of important damage and damage control mechanisms that would affect the outcome IRL, so what we have is really just a rough approximation, regardless of which mods you use, if any.

Hope this helps!

Pablo

[onelifecrisis]

Thanks for the info, Pablo!

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

The question isn't whether the hit points, zones, etc are the same... it's whether more damage is being done by the explosions. If you're saying no more damage is done, then how come
a) Ships sink so much easier with EDE?
b) Your sub takes far more damage when close to a ship which is exploding with EDE than without EDE?

Edit:
Wait a sec... are you saying that yes more damage is done, but that is more realistic?

LOL - the perils of cross-posting!

Hmm...I wasn't aware of these effects.

To answer your questions:

a) AFAIK, the EDE effects are only cosmetic, so the ships don't sink more easily. The only files affected by the EDE mod are particles and zones.cfg - if the changes to those files don't cause more explosion damage, then EDE can't cause more damage. "EDE - it doesn't make ships sink - it makes them sink more spectacularly."

b) Have you tried torpedoing ships at known ranges in a mission with known cargoes with the mod enabled and then with it disabled? For example, if you hit a ship with a cargo of ammunition and you're too close, then you're gonna get pasted - but you only know that for sure if you are playing a scenario that specifies the cargo type.

Pablo

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by siber

So, my question to other uber-realistic (or wannabe uber-realistic) players is this:
How do you ensure your gameplay is as accurate as possible? Which mods do you use? Do you have any advice about how I can better simulate real life experiences within the confines of SH3 as a computer game?

Hi!

I read the U-boat Commander's Handbook and try to follow its advice. Although it's dated 1943, before the roof caved in the the Ubootwaffe, it's pretty much common sense and works well in SH3 and GWX V2.1. Specifically:

• Never fight it out with aircraft if you can possibly help it.
• Don't use gunnery against targets that can shoot back.
• Get it really close (600 meters to 1000 meters) if possible to minimize the effect of aiming errors. If you can't get in close, especially later in the war, fire a spread of torpedoes and then quietly leave - if you cripple a couple of ships they'll still be within hydrophone range after the convoy and its escorts have departed, and you can stalk them and pick them off then.
• There is a saying about aircraft pilots: "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots." The same generally applies to U-boat commanders.

With regard to mods, I understand OLC vastly improves the game's modeling of actual U-boat targeting and torpedo aiming procedures, so you may want to look at that. The mod author has done a lot of work to document how it works, which is always a huge help (if I may say so...)

Pablo

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by siber

I play GWX2.1 at 100% realism - an no external camera! - with OLC's GUI and environment to give taller waves (and less visibility).

I'm working on getting all my mods in order, and having it the way I want it, before starting any new careers, but when I do I plan to learn the hard way and also play at 100%. I don't use OLC-GUI, as I'm a big fan of the 6-Dials Simfeeling mod, which won't work with it. It will, however, work with the earlier U-Jagd Tools mod, which is similar but not as advanced.

I always exit the game and restart upon returning to port, letting SH3Commander randomly transfer crewmen etc. I'll head for my assigned patrol grid, remaining there for 24hrs, before heading on a search pattern nearby if targets are not found. In order to try to achieve a realistic tonnage per patrol, I take no notice of single ships presented on the map, presuming that the majority of these would not be reported IRL. Convoys reported via the map I will pursue.

I too use SH3 Commander. I spend the entire patrol in my assigned grid, only wandering if a convoy is reported close by. As for radio contacts, I used to use the 20/20 mod, which reduced single ships to 20% of the original, and reduced radio contacts by the same amount. I don't know if GWX has anything like that as part of its routine, but I only pay attention to contacts that are very close by.

I try to use one torpedo for each level (small, medium, large) of merchant size, and I also never attack destroyers. At 100% I assume that becomes a very bad idea anyway. Also, I don't try to dogfight with them like I did back in the days of Silent Service and SH1. After my attack I go deep and slow, and think about trying to keep those little sprites alive.

p.s. I doubt very much I'll ever have time to play without any time compression to simulate the boredom. I take that as read... and really can't be bothered to try it myself...

I love the graphic additions in GWX, and I usually travel through the harbors at 1x, but once at sea I use time compression. I'm trying not to go over 128x or at most 256x. I don't remember which one is the level that minimizes air attacks. I try to stay slow enough that they will attack. Personally, I don't believe that playing at 1x is more realistic, simply because you have to either let it run while you do something else, or save it each time and only spend real time when you can, so end up taking a year to do one patrol. But that's just my opinion, so it's only my reason for not playing that way; I'm not suggesting that anyone else not do it if that's what they want.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

No I was speaking from experience, I've not done any controlled tests. What's more, I don't fully understand those files, but I don't think one needs to...
We can agree that the EDE changes to zones.cfg add additional explosions which do not take place when EDE is not installed. We can agree that these explosions do damage which is not compensated for by any increase in ship hitpoints. Case closed, no? :hmm:

Hi!

In general, we've found controlled tests in mission environments to be necessary in verifying reported problems since the mission editor can control some of the variables that can affect your results. Repeatability of the results is key when assessing stuff like this.

BTW, I checked with the GWX Technomages: the explosions are only visual effects, and cause no additional hit points of damage.

Pablo

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by Pablo

BTW, I checked with the GWX Technomages: the explosions are only visual effects, and cause no additional hit points of damage.

Hmm. Sit your sub next to one of those nice new mushroom-cloud explosions and say that.
Anyway thanks for getting back with that, good to know what the "official" line is, at least.

[siber]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

...As for radio contacts, I used to use the 20/20 mod, which reduced single ships to 20% of the original, and reduced radio contacts by the same amount. I don't know if GWX has anything like that as part of its routine, but I only pay attention to contacts that are very close by.

I try to use one torpedo for each level (small, medium, large) of merchant size, and I also never attack destroyers. At 100% I assume that becomes a very bad idea anyway. Also, I don't try to dogfight with them like I did back in the days of Silent Service and SH1. After my attack I go deep and slow, and think about trying to keep those little sprites alive.

I'd be interested to know more about that 20:20 mod. You mean it decreases the frequency of running into single ships by chance, AND the number of single ship radio contacts too? Does that affect reports of convoys too?

Is there any historical evidence for how many torps to fire at targets? I generally fire 2 at anything bigger than 1500t, upping to 4 if I get the chance to shoot a carrier or cruiser. When targetting, I always try to get an AOB of 90 degrees, in order that distance is irrelivent - simply the angle and speed of target.

I'm trying not to go over 128x or at most 256x. I don't remember which one is the level that minimizes air attacks. I try to stay slow enough that they will attack.

Really? High TC reduces the chances of air attack? I had no idea... Now: A trade off... More boredom for more realism? Hmmm :hmm:

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

Hmm. Sit your sub next to one of those nice new mushroom-cloud explosions and say that.
Anyway thanks for getting back with that, good to know what the "official" line is, at least.

Hi!

It would be a lot easier for us to check this out if you could cite a circumstance (range, ship type, ship's cargo, etc.) where you are repeatedly and reliably damaged when using EDE, and undamaged when not using EDE. FWIW, I have not suffered any damage when using EDE, even when using the deck gun at very close (100 to 200m) range.

Pablo

[mr chris]

Originally Posted by siber

Really? High TC reduces the chances of air attack? I had no idea... Now: A trade off... More boredom for more realism? Hmmm :hmm:

128x is the highest TC you can go to i belive before you start to minimze the chance of air attack.

[siber]

Do you know whether there's any way I can change this?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by siber

I'd be interested to know more about that 20:20 mod. You mean it decreases the frequency of running into single ships by chance, AND the number of single ship radio contacts too? Does that affect reports of convoys too?

Decreased - past tense. The original mod was for the stock game. It was included in RUB, so I assume NYGM. I don't know if GWX has it or not, but I would hope so.

Is there any historical evidence for how many torps to fire at targets? I generally fire 2 at anything bigger than 1500t, upping to 4 if I get the chance to shoot a carrier or cruiser. When targetting, I always try to get an AOB of 90 degrees, in order that distance is irrelivent - simply the angle and speed of target.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/...oct/index.html
Chapter 4, Section 6, Page 51, Part 4614.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/....html#section6