Discussion on how to change dc patterns.

[Mush Martin]

So as I did a long time ago with River FF in shIII
I've been working some single mission problems for
the enemy AI to work over while I watched them
from God mode.
While watching Three expert River Frigates
from SHIV UBM
Ive observed that
They do do buttercups or so(ish)
they do sprint and drift trading up control
while the others run in. and switching
in turn.
but when it comes time for the run in,
as the escort passes over the datum point.
The Dc racks fire a roughly normal roll out.
but as each thrower goes by the leading
edge of the datum point they all fire on the
same location theres a little disspersion but
no pattern as you or I would normally expect
as all the thrown dc's enter the water at roughly
the same point.

so I wanted to start a discussion about ideas.
to correct the pattern throwing of the AI. using
whatever means can be devised.

for my part my first notion is to reduce the number
of throwers regardless of historical accuracy and
build in a refire delay in the sim file. I think that would
probably work as an approximation but I wonder
if anyone has other suggestions that might work
without making non historical changes.

suggestions anyone.

M
[edit]
or leave a few racks with no ammo
and a few with ammo and refire delay

[DrBeast]

tater did some outstanding work on IJN DC Racks, I think he's the man to ask.

[Mush Martin]

Thanks I will see if I can reach him.:hmm:

[tater]

One ide on throwers would be to tweak the nodes the throwers are on so that they are not firing straight. out. Meaning say there are 3 throwers per side (none of the stock IJN ships, these would be kaibokan bashes). Assume the bow is 0 degrees, stern 180. You'd have the rear 2 firing at 95 degrees on one side, and 275 on the other. The middle ones at 90 and 270, and the fron pair at 85 and 265.

You'd then see more of a pattern.

Hmm, another idea, dunno if it is possible. I wonder if the thrower or rack could be made such that while the node is at one location the actual rack would be elsewhere. Basically the center of the object (rack/thrower) would be moved outside the object, perhaps just in X.

So you'd then move the node for a thrower all the way to the bow, but because of the offset the thrower would be exactly where it was before. Another might be reversed such that the node would be floating in space astern, and the thrower itself still on deck. So assuming it fires when the node passes datum, then you vary the throw point.

[Mush Martin]

I think throwers on the bow have deep risks for the escorts
of the two I think the multi angle is most promising

thanks for the notions.


M

[tater]

No! You misunderstand what I said!

The THROWER is on the stern where it belongs. The NODE is on the bow.

Current:

___DC_Thrower____________________|------|______________________
|......^^^........................................ ........................................../
\......NODE....................................... ........................................./


Idea:


___DC_Thrower____________________|------|______________________
|................................................. .....................................^^^.../
\................................................. ....................................NODE../


The DC thrower would have its center in X be offset.

The thrower sits at the node point at the point defined as the thrower's center. All I suggest is moving the thrower center outside of the thrower. Then, to put it where it belongs on the hull, the node has to be moved away from the thrower by the distance the center has been offset.
tater

[tater]

................___DC_Throwers___________________|------|______________________
^^^.........|......^^^............................ ..............................................^^^. ../
Node.........\......NODE.......................... .............................................NODE. ./


Say there are 2 new throwers. with differing offsets. Some nodes are behind the ship, some are stock (no offset), and some at the bow.

When the DD passes over the aim point with the bow node, that DC rack fires, but the rack is on the stern. 1 set of DCs is now behind the target. Then the middle node passes the aim point, but this is stock. Those racks fire AT the aim point. Then the DD keeps dashing, until the node astern passes aim point. The DC rack linked is actually ahead of the aim point since it is with the rest, on the stern. That DC is dropped ahead of the target.

This technique would work for roll racks AND throwers.

Note that if it was found that they usually dropped astern, then a simple offset on the roll racks would improve accuracy. One of each (for ships with 2 roll racks) would make a better pattern.

[Mush Martin]

That seems like a really promising method thanks again tater
and im sorry you had to type so hard to get through to me.

[tater]

I'm in a holding pattern til another project (The Slot (maps) for Il-2) is done, then I will be able to test this.

tater

[Ducimus]

Coordinates of the node, dictate the location of the equipment.

[tater]

Yes, but what dictates the center of the equipment?

I know from messing with some ship parts that the base of a given part might not be at zero.

Mast:

|
|
|
|
|
|-------------


....^......
Center is offset from the mast, and below the physical object.


tater

[tater]

In other words the center of a given object is set on top of the node as you say, but what determines the center of an object?

If you look at a gun's dat, does the gun have any XY, XZ, YZ values or are they always 0,0,0?

[Ducimus]

:hmm: I think i see what your saying.

Interesting idea.

[Mush Martin]

Indeed

[Jace11]

I'll keep an eye on this too as I'm disappointed in the patterns at the moment. The Throwers all fire too early in the pattern for me. IJN throwers Y gun types will have a delay as they always fire 2 (did you know.. I think the Y-gun fires two charges in the same direction, thats why all ships have pairs of Y guns and not singles so you should be able to increase a delay if you can find it.)

I've increased number of throwers on many IJN DDs as I was dissatisfied with the patterns. I've added nodes etc.

The Nodes dictate the position of the 3D model for the K-gun, the orientation dictates which way it fires. Though from what you are saying, it sounds like you would have to make a set of 3D models with different offsets. A mess. I'd experiment with angles on the throwers first Infact I may do that myself. I think one of the new ships, either Black Swan or River already has angled throwers could do a quick test with this to see what happens. (If it isnt Black Swan or River check the american DE's of the new british DDs as I have seen angled throwers somewhere...)