Trigger Maru vs RFB for a SH4 newbie

[Saturnalia]

Loved SH3 and the Grey Wolves mod, with SH4, not sure which one to use.
What are the differences between the two, any advantages one has over the other?

[Wilcke]

Read their respective threads, READ ME's, FAQ's. Setup two installs of SH4 and try them both. Thats what I do!

Happy Hunting!

[Ducimus]

I think its SWDW's turn to field this one, I think i answered last time, so im passing the buck.

[sideways]

Well,

I tend to find TM more 'fun' and RFB more 'real' (surprisingly enough)

TM's realism factor also often makes things easier - RFB almost always makes them harder.

So, I'd probably recommend TM - a number of things about it made my recent transition to manual targeting a LOT easier. You might want to take a look in the notes/faq's for how to remove some of the extra realism stuff built into it (map contacts not showing direction beyond compass points etc) if you're still a total noob.

p.s. Ducimus - Love your work.

[Rockin Robbins]

There are things you know about submarining, courtesy of GWX, that no amount of time in SH4 can teach you as well, especially evasion and dying. You're not going to freak if four Akizuki's peel off the formation and hold an indian war dance above you.

However, the American TDC is plenty weird from your point of view, and I'm assuming you want to sink targets, not just avoid depth charges.

That's why I recommend you play the game naked except for Pacific Environment for awhile. Those ship silhouettes, velocity vectors, different colors for friend and foe, who knows what else because I haven't seen them for so long, aren't there to cheat. They're there to help you learn, giving you too much information so that when you miss a shot you can understand what went wrong.

Once you understand the American targeting system, you can better judge TM vs RFB. I'm a TM guy because my previous experience with GWX lets me tolerate the better than reality Japanese ASW. In fact, I enjoy it. RFB has been built (correct me if I'm wrong, swdw or Luke) on "historical accuracy" for Japanese ASW. They basically took the numbers and concluded that the Japanese were marshmallows who couldn't sink a sub. Therefore they are pretty harmless. At least that was my experience with RFB in the Beery days.

I was pretty indignant at Ducimus when I met my first DD after loading up TM. I accused him of putting Superman on the crew, using his x-ray eyes to find me without even pinging. But I basically just switched into GWX mode and found that the beefed up ASW made SH4 better.

Tater has worked on both RFB and TM. He says that in the face of "historical" Japanese capabilities we become too bold, shooting it out on the surface with DDs, firing four torpedoes and sinking 4 escorts in John Wayne fashion, when in the real war they would behave much more timidly because they were trying to survive. In order for the player to behave realistically, the enemy must be more menacing than real life. Trigger Maru does that, supplying a more realistic player experience than "historical perfection" (whatever that is) would accomplish.

Oh, well. Count me a Trigger Maru fanboy and make up your own mind. You could always go the MultiSH4 way and have two installations, one for TM and one for RFB.

[TDK1044]

If you're looking for total reality, go with RFB. If you want a realistic feel with a little artistic license, go for TMO.

[swdw]

To Saturnalia
As for which one to use. It's personal preference. It's like asking people which is better, coke or pepsi.

Ducimus tried to maintain a balance of, as he says, 75% realism and 25% playability. RFB is heading towards the "I can smell the diesel fumes" realism (another quote from Ducimus)

It's easy enough to try both. Load up TM and do a patrol in TM, Then do the same thing with RFB.

If you are running 1.5, TM is the only choice at the moment. We're working on the 1.5 release of RFB at this time.

[swdw]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

RFB has been built (correct me if I'm wrong, swdw or Luke) on "historical accuracy" for Japanese ASW. They basically took the numbers and concluded that the Japanese were marshmallows who couldn't sink a sub. Therefore they are pretty harmless. At least that was my experience with RFB in the Beery days.

Actually, a lot has changed with the latest release of RFB. Giving an opinion of RFB based on the 1.2 or early 1.3 release is selling the mod short.

Because it utilizes Peto's extened evasion mod, you have varying levels of ASW, just like in the Pacific. The IJN ASW ran the gamut from almost inept to the "Bungo Pete" commanders.

Now you have no idea until you're in the middle of it what you're running into. DC attacks can be as short as 15 minutes or as long as 8+ hours.

With the RFB shell strength, you aren't going to surface and try to shoot it out with a DD . . . you'll lose. With good seamanship you might be able to take out a small miesweeper or subchaser.

There are changes to the sonar and radar that have changed your ability t detect ships (no more hydrophone use on the surface at a flank bell) . Crew abilities are now more realistic.

Crew members are more easily injured in RFB than TM. As far as hull durability, I think the RFB boats are slightly less durable than the TM counteparts. Couple that with the extended evasion mod and now getting DC'd, even by a rookie, means you are running a higher risk of damage.

The torpedo mod in the latest release wil tick you off as much as Mush Morton was when playing before the fixes in 1943.

So RR, if you want to comment on RFB, please give the new version a try. Reporting impressions on a version almost a year old is like giving your impression of the TM release last July.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by TDK1044

If you're looking for total reality, go with RFB. If you want a realistic feel with a little artistic license, go for TMO.

Thats pretty much the gist of of the differences between the two. Although TM should not be confused with being "easy". It was acutally meant to make things "harder" in some aspects.

Personnaly I try to avoid these comparitive posts, cause i think i probably "sell my mod" too much. Truthfully, I dont want to get on the bad side of the guys working on RFB, the pacific community is much better off when the two mods coexist and work together. In the end we're all striving for the same goal - a better Pacific game.

Crew members are more easily injured in RFB than TM. As far as hull durability, I think the RFB boats are slightly less durable than the TM counteparts.

I have thought about making hulls more vulenerable then i have already for awhile. Machine gun fire and such from planes and ships, should be more of a threat. The main reason i haven't is because of that tendency for the crew to shout in panic, long after the damage has been repaired. Its VERY annoying. If we could isolate and fix that issue first, i think we'd be making some good headway.

[Saturnalia]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

There are things you know about submarining, courtesy of GWX, that no amount of time in SH4 can teach you as well, especially evasion and dying. You're not going to freak if four Akizuki's peel off the formation and hold an indian war dance above you.

However, the American TDC is plenty weird from your point of view, and I'm assuming you want to sink targets, not just avoid depth charges.

VERY, VERY YES. Spent a good hour figuring out some of the switches and I am not even into manual data acquisition.