River Class Frigate

[LukeFF]

Why is this ship classified as a destroyer escort? Seems kind of odd to me.

(Easy enough to modify, though).

[Torplexed]

Yeah. Destroyer Escort was an American designation that was finally changed to Frigate in 1975 to bring them more in line with Nato nomenclature..I don't think the British ever used it.

[Mush Martin]

There are two River Classes, and an Issue of
other nomenclature as well.

The term Destroyer Escort was adopted for
there emergency escort ship designs. the
british used the terms corvette and later
frigate for there emergency expansion escorts
but used the term Destroyer escort for a
fleet destroyer stepped down in duties due
to age and obselesence.but not retired which
were refitted usually with reduced surface
armament though not always and usually
with an increased asw loadout. they were short
legged but very fast compared to the early hodge
podge escorts and the flower class corvettes.

later on as a result of the success of the flower
class a military conversion of a commercial design
the admiralty asked William Reed designer of the
Flower Class to go the other way and make a
commercial construction out of a military design
in an effort to remedy the more obvious shortcomings
of the Flower Class. the result was the
River Class Frigate. a different type of ship altogether
than the DE's,

The Rivers Were produced to the tune of 176 commisioned
hulls worldwide, they also spawned the later Loch and Bay
class Frigates which in there turn were the penultimate versions
of the commercial construction approach.

River Frigates were highly succesful if imperfect escorts.
they were however a worthy remedy and filled out the main
role of the escorts through the second half of the war.
in numbers they were the second most numerous commonwealth
combatant.

Excellent seaboats they were slower than the DE's but enjoyed
a much longer range and were although a little weak for surface
and AA armament much more up to date on leading edge asw
suites.

Regards.
M

OH CRAP!!!


You just HAD to wave that Red Flag in front of MM!!
Didn't you?

:rotfl:

[Mush Martin]

To my credit at least, I obviously tried to keep it brief.:rotfl:

[Wulfmann]

The Brits did have a backward DE in the Hunt class. They were "Escort Destroyers"

The River class were based on the "Sloops". Just an idea but maybe the term sloop seemed to shy and when they went to mass produced versions in wartime they wanted them to feel bigger, badder????

The main point is they had range, the ability to stay with a convoy the whole trip.

The Hunts class EDs (never saw them listed as such but???) were often used in destroyer roles but convoy escorts as well.
IMO, the River class type were the best all around suited to ASW convoy protection.

Wulfmann

[Raptor1]

The River class we're the British/Australian... made Frigates, while the Captain class we're Lend-Lease Destroyer Escorts, Both we're designated Frigates but we're really DEs

The Hunts we're DEs too (Almost full-scale DDs tho, because of the speed), only DDEs (Escort Destroyers) by name...

[bigboywooly]

The stock DERiver is a ship I have not seen any reference too
In fact although it was included in SH4 also the model was changed recently to the Frigate model - which should have been from the beginning -

[UnitClass]
ClassName=DERiver
UnitType=3
AppearanceDate=19420519
DisappearanceDate=19560928
DisplayName=BR FF River

SH4 names.cfg


LifeboatLarge=Lifeboat
LifeboatSmall=Liferaft
Frigate=What is this?!

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Back on track
Yes it should be a type=2 ( which is how the GWX Frigate is classed )

And IIRC the Hunt was designed for coastal\North Sea\Med duties only
Being too short and narrow and lacking range for Atlantic work

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

The River class we're the British/Australian... made Frigates, while the Captain class we're Lend-Lease Destroyer Escorts, Both we're designated Frigates but we're really DEs

The Hunts we're DEs too (Almost full-scale DDs tho, because of the speed), only DDEs (Escort Destroyers) by name...

Actually no.

Corvette coined by churchill as the name for whaler type commercial escorts

Frigate coined by admiral sir percy nelles. and suggested to the admiralty
this name supplanted the term twin screw corvettes. and was later established as a worldwide naval term ie. a "Frigate Navy" previously
the term had fallen into complete disuse after the napoleanic wars.

Destroyer escort. (British) a practicle suffix designation to distinguish
the A's to H's that were stepped down from fleet duties to escort duties.

escort destroyer as per wulfmanns post is a designation for the Hunts alone. in this case designating a unit designed exclusively as an escort
but with as much capability as a fleet destroyer (theoretically)


finally the US term Destroyer Escort came after when admiral king
decided that the british term was unpallatable so adopted the term
Destroyer escort as it would denote a more powerful ship in a lesser
role by connotation. however this didnt happen first properly as fifty
years later did happen the DE's were finally classified as frigate.

the modern term frigate denotes a general purpose ship of naval spec
utilizing commercial construction and components therer chief virtue
being simplicity and affordability which is why so many third world navies
are "Frigate Navies"


@BBW Redesgnation of A to H class fleet destroyers with reduced surface
armament and increased asw armament.
(game designation unexplainable but understandable)

(I still tried to keep it short.)
M

[tater]

I'd not get pedantic about the ship classes in SH4 at that level. There are Type=0 through Type=4 that will behave as escorts. The principal use of the types in this case is to use random types if you desire in a campaign, but perhaps broken down by operational function.

(I'll use IJN types cause I know them well)
Ie: 0 (patrol craft) for brown water duty, 4 are fleet escorts, while type=3 might be reserved for Old DDs pressed into escort duty (Minekaze, Momi, et al. for the IJN). That leaves 1 and 2 for other roles. 2 might be purpose built IJN escort craft, like Kaibokan Coast Defense ships, and Matsu DDs (technically called DDs by the IJN, they were used as DEs). 1 then for subchasers and other smaller or ersatz ASW assets. Then a given random convoy might have 2xtype3 @50%, 2xType2@75% chance, and 6xtype1 @80% chance.

It's also possible to imagine mixing (via "BP-cloned" ships (new cfgs point at existing models, no dat changes), perhaps) ships up a little so that a given "type" is more of an operational role rather than the particular semantics of a given navy.

Note that you can easily add types in Names.cfg, and they work, but only the extant types 0-4 will function as ASW assets. Ie: you can put DCs on a Yamato BB, and she won't drop them, regardless of what sensors you give her. Change her to type 0-4 and she will. (Mushashi had DC racks installed on the fantail, BTW).

tater

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by tater

I'd not get pedantic about the ship classes in SH4 at that level. There are Type=0 through Type=4 that will behave as escorts. The principal use of the types in this case is to use random types if you desire in a campaign, but perhaps broken down by operational function.

(I'll use IJN types cause I know them well)
Ie: 0 (patrol craft) for brown water duty, 4 are fleet escorts, while type=3 might be reserved for Old DDs pressed into escort duty (Minekaze, Momi, et al. for the IJN). That leaves 1 and 2 for other roles. 2 might be purpose built IJN escort craft, like Kaibokan Coast Defense ships, and Matsu DDs (technically called DDs by the IJN, they were used as DEs). 1 then for subchasers and other smaller or ersatz ASW assets. Then a given random convoy might have 2xtype3 @50%, 2xType2@75% chance, and 6xtype1 @80% chance.

It's also possible to imagine mixing (via "BP-cloned" ships (new cfgs point at existing models, no dat changes), perhaps) ships up a little so that a given "type" is more of an operational role rather than the particular semantics of a given navy.

Note that you can easily add types in Names.cfg, and they work, but only the extant types 0-4 will function as ASW assets. Ie: you can put DCs on a Yamato BB, and she won't drop them, regardless of what sensors you give her. Change her to type 0-4 and she will. (Mushashi had DC racks installed on the fantail, BTW).

tater

so did a few brit escort carriers and the IJN retained them as light cruiser
armament long after they fell into disuse most other places.

M

[Ducimus]

I'd not get pedantic about the ship classes in SH4 at that level. There are Type=0 through Type=4 that will behave as escorts. The principal use of the types in this case is to use random types if you desire in a campaign, but perhaps broken down by operational function.

Thats my thoughts on it. Besides, what type you assign a ship (corvette, frigate, DD, DE, etc) makes no difference at all to the game. Contrary to most modder sentimate on it, im acutally in favor of "generic" entries in MIS layers because it makes the layer reuseable, and easier to apply mass changes in a txt editor if needed. Particuarlly now that ubi's created "super BB's and "elite transports". Now you can use generic entires such as "genric battleship" or "generic troop transport" and not have to worry aobut umpteen yamato's or ocean liners spawning.

WIth some creative uses of corvette, frigate, or DE ship types, you can also make some unique units that only appear in select locations and still be able to use generic entries of other escort types elsewhere. I love how ive made an super uber Destroyer of submarines that appears in only one location for fun, and not have to worry about him entering convoys. (not so fun)

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

The Brits did have a backward DE in the Hunt class. They were "Escort Destroyers"

The River class were based on the "Sloops". Just an idea but maybe the term sloop seemed to shy and when they went to mass produced versions in wartime they wanted them to feel bigger, badder????

The main point is they had range, the ability to stay with a convoy the whole trip.

The Hunts class EDs (never saw them listed as such but???) were often used in destroyer roles but convoy escorts as well.
IMO, the River class type were the best all around suited to ASW convoy protection.

Wulfmann

BTW B,

Richard Worth's "Fleets of WWII" ()
Da Capo Press 2001
ISBN 0-306-8116-2
Rates the Hunts only as ever being classed
as ED's.

Regards.
M

[Hunter]

Frigate=What is this?!

Thisfrigate is the Flying Dutch gost ship, which is in the game.